Should the international community sanction Israel over settler violence in West Bank?

I felt chilled by the violent rhetoric used by certain Israeli leaders on 7/10/23.

Because I knew the Palestinians would have to pay a terrible price for what Hamas did. I think most world leaders would have reacted violently too if their innocent citizens were attacked/murdered/kidnapped and subject to sexual violence.

My empathy was mainly for Israel that day who suffered the assault. But I knew the retribution would be horrendous too. It was such a stupid thing for Hamas to do and the end result is more hatred & mistrust on both sides which is hardly conducive to a 2 state solution any time soon.

@FloralDeerPattern ,

I am sure we don’t see things identically!

‘Can you not understand though that not everybody would be sympathetic to such horrific rhetoric aimed at millions of innocent people coming from government ministers, who have the power to follow through and make those words into actions and want to protest against it outside the relevant embassy without it being cause for disappointment and suspicion? ‘

Of course I can see that, and they have a right to protest. But protests were being planned literally during the 07/10 attacks:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hours-after-hamas-invaded-on-oct-7-uk-anti-israel-group-began-planning-mass-protest/

That is pretty awful to me.

’ I don’t know what you Israel have raped, killed and attacked 100s of 1000s of innocent people and there hasn't been any over reactions there?’

Umm what under reaction? Once you have a war, it becomes about capability more than intent. Hamas’s charter stated:

The 1988 Charter

• Explicit Antisemitism: Stated that the Hamas Covenant 1988 struggle against Jews was "very great and very serious".
• Conspiratorial Claims: Cited the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion to claim Jewish control over world events and media.
• Religious Rhetoric: Used apocalyptic religious language calling for the killing of Jews hiding behind trees and stones.
• Collective Blame: Held Jewish people collectively responsible for global conflicts like the World Wars.

They slightly revised it in 2017 to refer to Israelis rather than Jews and to take out the reference to the ‘Protocols of the Elders of Zion’, but most view that as tactical rather than stopping being anti semitic.

There is no doubt that were Hamas to somehow control an area where any Jews lived, there would be no Jews left alive, as we saw on 7/10.

None of that excuses what Israel are doing, and I am all for boycotting them until they accept the inevitability of a two state solution. However the idea that only Israel had genocidal intent is laughable.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/intelligence-ministry-concept-paper-proposes-transferring-gazans-to-egypts-sinai/

But from this article Israel was not short of citizens who could spot some rather large holes in that plan, even before you consider whether it showed intention of genocide.

@Newbutoldfather, "I don’t think Israel did have genocidal intent at that point."

Not sure I agree with that. I believe the decision to clear out Gaza was taken very early on, if not immediately, as a war goal. The proposal for a temporary tented city in the Sinai for Palestinian civilians first emerged officially on October 13, 2023, just six days after the October 7 attacks. Everyone knew there would be nothing temporary about it.

@FloralDeerPattern ,

‘Just to add to this the first thing Israel did that turned my stomach in this conflict was on the morning of Oct 9 when Gallant announced that he was going to starve everyone in Gaza. “I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”’

To be honest, I sympathised with Gallant at that point.

Not that what he said wasn’t horrific but, given the horrors of 7/10, anyone would have overreacted. The whole west massively overreacted after 9/11. You cannot attack, rape and kill thousands of innocent civilians and drag back ‘hostages’ with you and not expect an overreaction.

Israel is a very small country and I suspect that virtually every citizen probably knew of someone who knew one of the dead or captured.

It was precisely what Hamas wanted and expected. So, it was very stupid of Israel , and I think they would have done far better with cooler heads. Understandable, though? Absolutely.

I don’t think Israel did have genocidal intent at that point. Biden was in the White House and wouldn’t have accepted it. That threat was made in the context of getting the hostages back. I suspect that Israel wanted to destroy Hamas and get back to some kind of equilibrium again.

I think a few (the usual suspects G’vir, Smotrich, Katz) sensed an opportunity when Trump was in the White House and seemed to be happy to accept some prime beachside property in return for ceding Gaza to Israel.

I understand your concern about the phrasing of 'the howls of anti semitism are exposed', but what are the UK and other governments supposed to do?

Again - I am in favour of the UK and other governments sanctioning the settlements. It's just a shame that people have used this as an excuse to unleash more antisemitic rhetoric like the line above.

I don't think the (very limited) sanctions will achieve anything on the ground, sadly. Yet I was still in favour of the UK government taking a moral stand. However, comments like the one above make me question whether it was the right thing after all. If it makes antisemitic people feel more justified in their antisemitism, it may have been the wrong decision after all. Very complex!

When I worked in a large multicultural team, I was disappointed at the time by Muslim colleagues (lack of) response to the Islamic terrorist bombing at Manchester Arena in 2017. It didn't make me suspicious of their identity in the UK though. I expected we would all talk about it as we talked about other big events in the news, but there was a silence that felt awkward.

I think their reasons for not wanting to talk about it (among an ethnically mixed group of colleagues) were probably complex.

No one pushed them to talk about it, by the way. Some people just drew conclusions from the fact they chose not to, and said they won't comment because the suicide bomber & his brother who assisted him were Muslim. That was their assumption, not necessarily true of course.

After I left the organisation and reflected back, I thought maybe Muslim colleagues just didn't feel comfortable discussing it with non Muslims. And in any case, it isn't their role in life to have to take a position on every crime committed by Muslims across the globe.

Yes.

Your point is not more clear.

UK senior rabbis approve the government action. The howls of anti semitism are exposed.

But who is listening and has their opinion actually changed?

I understand your concern about the phrasing of 'thowls of anti semitism are exposed', but what are the UK and other governments supposed to do? The rest of the world hasn't sat back when Trump has made threatening noises about Greenland and Canada, and it's not even as though many people think those threats will come to anything.

I accept that people are more able to separate Americans from their President, but how much should that affect foreign policy? I don't think many people posting on this thread are supporters of Netanyahu - should other countries accept that he and his government will just do whatever they want?

I was responding to the other poster.

I assumed that you were talking about worldwide criticism of Jews, rather than specifically scapegoating in the UK. Indigenous people are certainly relevant worldwide. Of course it is not a competition. I haven't suggested that, merely that I dislike all racism and hypocrisy too. I agree that totally with what you are saying about both antisemitic and Islamophobic both being used incorrectly to try to silence people. This is something that I have objected to on here. It's extremely unhelpful as it shuts down much needed discussion about the issues that society faces nowadays.
I did give one specific example of Islamophobia in the post above. 'Meanwhile the poster who started the thread about the UK government 'siding with the Islamists', clearly an Islamophobic slur has not been criticised.'

I haven't seen any evidence that Jews have experienced more racism than Indigenous people, black people, Asian people, particularly Muslims

All these groups have experience a lot of racism, so I'm not really understanding your argument here.

What are we comparing? How many generations you need to go back before you find genocide? The number of books that have been written describing a particular race as inferior?

Unfortunately it does seem to have changed the rhetoric for the worse. And I say this as someone who wanted the government to sanction the settlements (not the whole of Israel) as I have discussed before with @Newbutoldfather

Take the post higher up this page: UK senior rabbis approve the government action. The howls of anti semitism are exposed.

People are using the government's actions to push their own agendas. In this case that sanctioning the settlements makes a lie of people calling out antisemitism in the UK " the howls of anti semitism are exposed".

The implication that all UK senior rabbis approve the government actions isn't even true, let alone that this exposes antisemitism allegations as untrue.

@rainingsnoring ,

‘Can you be a bit more specific about what you mean by Jews being scapegoated for techno-feudalism? ‘Is this about being Jewish or the behaviour of some of these big tech bosses?’

It feeds into the well known antisemitic trope of Jews controlling the financial system and money. Also, the idea that Jews control the media.

I suspect that, in the west, the higher the Gini coefficient, the more the antisemitism. It is also true that the left wing are the most critical of Israel and, for some although far from all, they are also antisemitic (though would deny it if asked).

‘I do think it's important to keep some perspective here. I haven't seen any evidence that Jews have experienced more racism than Indigenous people, black people, Asian people, particularly Muslims, who are on the receiving end of the majority of racism in the UK now. Personally, I am against all racism. Some of the posters here, (not referring to you), seem to be very selective in their calls of racism. Some of them even make racist comments about other groups of people. I hate both racism and hypocrisy.’

I mean, I don’t know what you mean about indigenous people in terms of the UK? However, it’s not a competition. As you say, all racism is awful and Jews can hide their ethnicity more easily (unless they are religious and feel compelled to wear a kippah).

I hate all racism too, although some on here are also quick to call out racism when the issue is a repressive religion or culture. That is dangerous too. Calling someone antisemitic or Islamophobic is sometimes used as a magic spell to silence free speech. We need to be precise and forensic with our definitions.

I totally agree that there is a long history of Jews being scapegoated for the 'ills of the world'. They have been subjected to horrific suffering. I hope everyone acknowledges this.

Can you be a bit more specific about what you mean by Jews being scapegoated for techno-feudalism? Is this about being Jewish or the behaviour of some of these big tech bosses?

I do think it's important to keep some perspective here. I haven't seen any evidence that Jews have experienced more racism than Indigenous people, black people, Asian people, particularly Muslims, who are on the receiving end of the majority of racism in the UK now. Personally, I am against all racism. Some of the posters here, (not referring to you), seem to be very selective in their calls of racism. Some of them even make racist comments about other groups of people. I hate both racism and hypocrisy.

@rainingsnoring ,

‘There has been a rise in antisemitism worldwide because of the actions of the Israeli government. That is tragic. Of course, the Israeli government is blaming everyone else, particularly the Muslims lately.’

It’s not just because of the actions of the Israeli government, although those have been deeply unhelpful.

Jews have always been scapegoated for the ills of the world, and the rise in techno feudalism (not sure I would 100% agree with the word, but it contains some truth) and the concentration of wealth has once again led to resentment, and guess what that feeds into.

Which is why, as strongly as I will criticise the actions of the current Israeli government and argue for a two state solution, I will defend the right of Israel to continue to exist as a Jewish State.

Are you able to quote all these MN posts where posters are 'who are blaming all Jewish people for the Israeli government’s actions'. I know that you are on MN much more than I am but I haven't seen this.

I have seen accusations such as yours and accusations of antisemitism when posters criticise the actions of Israel though many times. Another poster, on a different thread in this section was repeatedly accused of antisemitism when asking whether all Israelis should be held culpable for the actions of their government (not Jews, Israelis). Meanwhile the poster who started the thread about the UK government 'siding with the Islamists', clearly an Islamophobic slur has not been criticised. There have been various other comments making generalised derogatory about all Muslims or all Arabs which are not generally not commented on, certainly not by the posters who accuse others of antisemitism constantly.

There has been a rise in antisemitism worldwide because of the actions of the Israeli government. That is tragic. Of course, the Israeli government is blaming everyone else, particularly the Muslims lately.

@Twiglets1 ,

That is a two way street.

Tell me you weren’t disappointed by the Muslim’s apathetic responses to 9/11 and, especially, 7/10? Tell me it didn’t make you a little suspicious of their identity in the uk?

It certainly did me, as did the pro Palestine marches after 7/10 and before Israel had even responded.

Now that is no individual Muslim’s fault but you cannot just stand and watch injustice unfold without giving people to think that you at least partially support it.

There is zero excuse for racism of any kind, be it antisemitism or Islamophobia.

But does that change because the UK government takes a stronger line on condemning a specific policy that consecutive governments have condemned for decades?

Calling the Israel government out for their actions is one thing @Newbutoldfather and of course plenty of Jewish people don’t want to be associated with it.

The trouble is, there are people around - & we see them on MN - who are blaming all Jewish people for the Israeli government’s actions- even Jewish people living in the UK. There has been a big rise in antisemitism in the UK.

Distancing yourself from Israel as a secular Jew living in the UK is your decision & right. It won’t save you from antisemitic people making false assumptions about you, unfortunately, if they knew you were Jewish.

*now not ‘not’ in the last sentence