Should the international community sanction Israel over settler violence in West Bank?

Ah @FloralDeerPattern these are the people Katz called "boys in the hills" like a group of mischievous ragamuffins.

Thinking of the small children and toddlers held hostage by these terrorists and the IDF in their own houses today. Hopefully there will be the same international outcry for them.

There's definitely anti semitism in the UK and other countries but I think the huge majority felt great sympathy for the victims of the 7th October attack, as they should have, of course. Sadly, the aggression of the Israeli government has been a major factor in the rise in anti semitism in other countries.

Conspiracy theories generally take time to develop. There is no harm in considering them as part of critical thinking. It doesn't mean that you need to 100% believe them or 100% dismiss them. The individual can make a judgement based on the evidence that is available over time.

It's interesting that you contrast this to Islamophobia, which is far more openly acceptable and more common than anti semitism. The genocide in Gaza and the ethnic cleansing in Lebanon/The W Bank, including the deliberate targeting of civilians, is constantly dismissed as 'well it's a war, what do you expect?' On here blatantly Islamophobic comments are often unchallenged or only slightly challenged. In some areas of the MSM, the Telegraph in particular, Islamophobia is positively encouraged. The response is entirely different is anyone criticises the Israeli government. The poster is frequently accused of anti semitism. There is a lot of racism towards brown skinned people in general, particularly Muslims.

So what sources are you talking about?

If you listen to the likes of Natasha Hausdorf (UKFLI)that's what happened/happening in the West Bank. Israel have not displaced anyone. (Said with a straight face as well)

Wouldn't it be lovely to just live in such blissful ignorance that the Arabs just "vanished " willingly.

And would you blame them.

They have been denied any right to return.

Just saw Israel airstrikes have killed 11 in the Lebanon. There is no stopping them.

Were the people in the pub doing both - saying how sorry they felt for the victims but at the same time blaming Israel for what happened to them?

Somehow I doubt it, the conspiracy theorists I know are quite lacking in the empathy department as they just want to tell everyone their mad theories.

You can do both. Feel awful for what happened to the victims and at the same time suspect that something nefarious was at play. I do not feel it is antisemitic but that is my opinion. If people had no sympathy for the victims then yes, the only reason for that would be total antisemitism and I would have absolutely have nothing to do with them. In fact I would in no uncertain terms tell them what I think of them. The thing is, people love conspiracy theories. Covid, 9/11, the Kennedy assassination, flat earthers for gods sake. The list goes on.

May as well be honest … I think there’s a lot more antisemitism in the UK than people realise. Some of it is quite open other parts are less obvious. Like people assuming that Israel is capable of anything and therefore they have an excuse to feel/express no pity when their civilians are attacked.

As a thought experiment I wonder if people down the pub would be so quick to jump to - they probably knew it was going to happen and allowed it for their own reasons if it was a different country apart from Israel or the US. If they were focusing on a conspiracy theory rather than saying- how awful - those poor people.

What if it happened to a Muslim country? It would rightly be seen as Islamophobic to focus on blaming the country and saying maybe they wanted it, rather than feeling sympathy for the civilians being attacked.

I guess you do get some conspiracy theorists whatever the situation. The trick for all of us is not to listen to them. Call them out on it if we feel able to.

I'm going to be honest with you. I think there are a hell of a lot of people who believe it. Far more than you think. I believe there are power players in every government and military in the world who are more than capable of sacrificing their own innocent civilians to achieve a goal. Although I said I don't believe it, it is only because I don't feel it has been proven, to me. Not because I don't believe anyone is evil enough to do it. That's why I said I wouldn't be as shocked as you if it did turn out to be true.

Ok I did think after I posted that I shouldn’t have included the word “keyboard”.

Personally I don’t mix with anyone who would openly speculate immediately after the massacre & rapes of 7/10/23 that Israel may have allowed it for their own reasons.

The normal response to any country whose innocent civilians have been targeted is pity.

They have also learnt from the first Nakba. They know that leaving is a one way ticket and they would never be allowed to return. Once that happens, it's game over for them. I believe that most of them would rather die than let that happen.

Yes but not just on the computer. I think the first time I heard it was in a pub.

Ugh the keyboard conspiracy theorists were quick off the mark.

No because I've heard it many times before. In fact the first time I heard it was in the first few days after Oct 7th.

There is definitely a pride that is unique to groups that have undergone huge trauma.
I have seen posted that if it were there children they would just leave but that completely underestimates the effect occupation has on the national psyche.
(It's also what Israel wants to happen so that is also a factor)

Yeah we agree on the main point. And the smaller point which is that Israel is wrong to have banned independent media access. It made some sense when the war was full on, less sense now.

Anyone can be racist even towards their own race/culture. It’s weird to me but I know it’s a thing. Like some people seem to have a bias against white middle class people even though they are white, middle class themselves. Maybe they feel guilty for historical events. I don’t get that as I don’t feel guilty for what other people have done, just try to live a moral life myself. Anyway, we go off track.

And it’s just a conspiracy theory against Israel too but were you shocked at hearing it repeated on MN as if it could be true? On the evidence of - a Jewish man said so.

@Twiglets1 ,

‘I’m sure you know Jewish people can be antisemitic like people of any race or religion can be racist even towards their own race/culture.’

I mean it’s theoretically possible to hate your self because of your ethnicity/religion, but I would say if is very rare. Out of all the Jews who have reservations about what Israel is doing in the world today, I would say 1% tops are antisemitic/self-hating. The other 99% are worried about what is being done by ‘The Jewish State’ in their name (well, it’s not strictly in their name, but there is quite a lot to unpick there!).

‘But I don’t think it’s right to assume the worst about any country on any issue just based on speculation and with no real evidence. To believe the worst is to accept any negative comment unquestioningly - no matter how implausible - because you’ve already decided to assume the worst.’

There aren’t many reasons to ban and harass the media if you aren’t doing anything wrong. And there are plenty of reports of them doing plenty wrong, many from solid sources, including IDF whistleblowers who have been very disturbed by what they have seen.

‘We have to engage our brains on the subject of whether it’s likely that the Israel government or top military deliberately allowed 7/10/23 to go ahead. On the balance of probability considering how extremely defensive they are toward their civilians, it is extremely unlikely. ‘

You know I totally agree with you here. I don’t think Israel ever willingly sacrifice their own people.

Actually there's plenty of conspiracy theories about 9/11. If one day there is a whistle blower and it does turn out to be true, I would be shocked but probably not as shocked as you. Until such a time it is just a conspiracy theory.

I’m sure you know Jewish people can be antisemitic like people of any race or religion can be racist even towards their own race/culture.

To be clear I’m not accusing you of being antisemitic, I’m finding your posts quite thoughtful and interesting.

Lack of media access is one thing and yes, the Israel government should be criticised for that - & lots of other things too like enabling the Settler violence.

But I don’t think it’s right to assume the worst about any country on any issue just based on speculation and with no real evidence. To believe the worst is to accept any negative comment unquestioningly - no matter how implausible - because you’ve already decided to assume the worst.

We have to engage our brains on the subject of whether it’s likely that the Israel government or top military deliberately allowed 7/10/23 to go ahead. On the balance of probability considering how extremely defensive they are toward their civilians, it is extremely unlikely.

And I’m not exaggerating at all.

My comment wasn’t directed at you Twigs, so stand down!

Was merely pointing out the fact that there was a lot of hatred directed at the Palestinians from the Pro Israeli side too.