Should the international community sanction Israel over settler violence in West Bank?

And maybe, just maybe, Egypt didn’t want to be complicit in Israels plan of ethnic cleansing.

It's the same mentality of those who decided that civilians in Gaza were better off dying in the war than being given safe refuge in neighbouring Egypt, as would happen in every other war where civilians would be able to flee to a non-hostile neighbouring country, Then screaming about how many civilians casualties there are while knowing full well they were being used as human shields.

But the Rafah crossing was shut. By Israel. And why on earth should 6 million people become Egypt’s problem? Do you think an extra 6 million people are easy to food, house, clothe, medicate, educate etc when Egypt has enough poverty of its own. And why become a refugee in another country,and have no status, when you actually have your own country to live in? And when has Israel let those people who left in previous wars back in. It’s crazy that you don’t know this.

What to say ?

First up I suppose, proof that there was religion does not prove that the religion was, or is, true. The dead sea scrolls date to roughly 530 BCE to 68 CE. There are other things older. The pyramids of Giza., 2575–c. 2465 BCE. Not many people insisting those God were real.

The Epic of Gilgamesh predates the Hebrew Bible. Tablets from 668-627 BCE survive. And many of the stories in that appear to have been coped to the Hebrew scrolls.

There is also the thing with translation not being easy.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/hebrew-wasnt-spoken-for-2000-years-heres-how-it-was-revived

We are talking about witnesses to the genocide happening now. 20 year old witness statements are irrelevant to what has happened in the last 34 months and counting.

Ex British military personnel provided security services to aid agencies delivering humanitarian and medical aid in 2005 in Gaza following the Israeli pullout from Gaza.

After threats from Hamas towards these humanitarian and medical agencies both the agencies and their security support were pulled out of Gaza.

In addition EUBAM Rafah was launched as an EU civilian mission to provide a neutral presence at the Gaza-Egypt border, with UK diplomatic and personnel backing, to build operational trust and security for passing cargo and aid workers. It used large numbers of ex British military personnel.

‘Settlers’

Well, that poster was asking about proving who should live in the land and said 'no fairy tale books, real proof'. So, I submit that the Torah/Talmud/Bible are all proof. Sure, other cultures go back in time to that point as well, no doubt with their own proof.

Question is, how far back do you go to prove you are entitled to that land before someone claims it's too far and you have no proof. But yeah, if you want to stick strictly to settlers then best for another thread.

Sorry you are actually correct Ellen shouldn't even be responding to the derailment with a rehash of points of nearly 3 years of threads.
There is no justification for the behavior of the "settlers" and no other poster is attempting to do so .

Ethnic cleansing is the deliberate policy of forcibly removing an ethnic, racial, or religious group from a territory, often through violence or intimidation, to create an ethnically homogeneous area.

Exactly what is happening in the West Bank right now.

@OpenScroller

Your post is extremely confusing. I'm not sure what you are actually advocating for.
Where do you actually want the 6 million Palestinians to actually go?

How is this relevant to @FloralDeerPattern ’s thread? It does feel like derailment. If you’d like to discuss the history of the Israel/Palestine conflict, why not start a new thread? It would be interesting to have a thread dedicated to historical interpretations as they inevitably emerge in other threads? Go for it.

Ethnic cleansing -
Ethnic cleansing is the deliberate policy of forcibly removing an ethnic, racial, or religious group from a territory, often through violence or intimidation, to create an ethnically homogeneous area.

Being given a choice is not ethnic cleansing. Palestinians don't want to live under 'occupation' in an open air prison but also don't want to create their own State in their 'territory' and want to kill Jews/annihilate Israel so why not give them a choice to live in an existing Arab/Palestinian State?

Why would anyone want generation after generation to remain perpetual refugees? Although in truth it's a billion $ industry. Not for the benefit of Palestinians though.

Also considering Arabs/Palestinians make up 20% of the Israel population, and were living on the land or are descendants of those who were before 1948, how would Palestinians moving to Jordan be ethnic cleansing?

Jews aren't a homogenous group in Israel.

I honestly cannot understand the mentality of people in the West being opposed to Palestinians, who have been used as pawns and human sacrifices for a religious war against Jews for decades, living as free citizens in an Arab State.

It's the same mentality of those who decided that civilians in Gaza were better off dying in the war than being given safe refuge in neighbouring Egypt, as would happen in every other war where civilians would be able to flee to a non-hostile neighbouring country, Then screaming about how many civilians casualties there are while knowing full well they were being used as human shields.

Palestinians are Arabs btw. They're not a distinct ethnic group and in the time line we were discussing, they identified as Arabs. A Palestinian nationalistic identity didn't emerge until 1964 when an Egyptian declared them as such under the Jordanian flag (with the star removed) and created the Palestine Liberation Organisation while the newly declared Palestinians were illegally occupied by Jordan and Egypt!

Cue @RedTagAlan!

Potentially derailing but interesting for another thread.

Maybe you are the one that needs to engage their brain. You said this which heavily implied that doctors were being protected somehow:

They've all been in Gaza multiple times. On the ground, and also know what they're talking about.
Two are from the UK and fought in our military.
How do you think these UK doctors stay safe while working in Gaza?

Many doctors in Gaza have been killed by the IDF's indiscriminate attacks on civilian infrastructure. No-one is protecting them.
If the IDF really "making extensive efforts to minimize civilian harm" why did they murder journalists in Gaza that were trying to film the reality?

@Newbutoldfather
‘And goods from the settlements? Some nuts, some olives and some bath products. The entire exports from the occupied territories, Palestinian and Israeli combined, are less than 2% of Israel’s total exports. So I imagine the settler bit will maybe affect 0.5% of exports, tops.’

This really does put into perspective the slim hopes gleaned from the eu article cited earlier. If Meloni follows through for QMV or even if she doesn’t need to (due to the illegality of the settlements), the European focus on sanctioning settlements is a minuscule drop in the ocean 🌊 f lucrative trade.

So frustratingly slow but it is at least an active measure - a crumb??

‘seems to me that Israel is pushing to see where the boundaries of what it can do without suffering meaningful consequences are and each time they get away with it, they push further.’

Absolutely agree with this - all red lines have already been crossed.

What do they need to do before meaningful action is taken?
I think that’s a question that anyone who does not support full sanctions should be prepared to answer.

Where did I say the UK military has been protecting British doctors in Gaza?

How exactly do the NGO staff stay safe under Hamas rule do you think?

Or was the way they behaved on Oct 7th a one off loss of control?

Seriously, people need to actually use their brains in informing an opinion on this conflict, rather just seek confirmation bias.

Don't be so ridiculous. The UK military is not, and has not been, in Gaza protecting British doctors. British medical volunteers and humanitarian workers operate in Gaza independently under organizations like UK-Med and Medical Aid for Palestinians.

Considering one article is from someone embedded with the IDF(and his numbers on civilians have many critics as he is accused of flawed logic and misinterpreting Human Rights )and one is from a pro Israel think tank I'll stick with the doctors. Both these articles have been debated here numerous times.

Anyway to return to.the topic there is a video on Reuters of the American returning to the sieged houses. It's very interesting. It shows how embedded the "settlers" are with the IDF. But also being American he is definitely afforded more tolerance.

It's rather rude to call the Hebrew scriptures/ Bible a 'fairy tale book' - especially when the Dead Sea Scrolls prove they are real. You look a bit silly stating that!

Randoms?

They've all been in Gaza multiple times. On the ground, and also know what they're talking about.

Two are from the UK and fought in our military.

How do you think these UK doctors stay safe while working in Gaza?

Have you heard any of them mention Hamas?

Hamas who use hospitals as bases?

Do they have invisibility cloaks?

I come back to inherent bias. You are not prepared to investigate anything that challenges yours. I bet you didn't even read the links.

IME someone suffering from inherent bias also has to suspend logic and critical thinking skills.

I completely agree.

Everything is geared towards supporting those who are helping to ethnically cleanse the West Bank.

There are no restraints or consequences whatsoever for their violence and intimidation - only state support and reward.

Innocent farmers and families are being forced from their homes and land whilst the IDF watches - this is genocide.

I take the eye witness testimonies of UK doctors on the ground in Gaza and the evidence collated by the United Nations one million times more seriously than the ramblings of a few randoms thanks.

Well anyway @Newbutoldfather we understand each other's position, not much more to say on the subject I don't think. Thank you for debating politely.

@Twiglets1 ,

As I said, it is fine to disagree. That is what politics is, really.

‘According to Middle East Eye, the UK government is poised to announce a raft of new policies in September, set to include a ban on goods from illegal Israeli settlements.

The Foreign Office is looking at imposing new sanctions on individuals and organisations involved in the settler movement in the occupied West Bank, sources with knowledge of the matter said.

There have also been internal discussions on potential sanctions on more Israeli ministers, after far-right ministers Itamar Ben Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich were sanctioned last year.’

I think these are total fig leaves and designed for (gullible) domestic consumption only.

What does sanctioning an individual actually mean? It means a travel ban and that they cannot invest in the uk or run a uk company. I don’t think Ben G’vir or Smotrich will be much affected by any of those, and it certainly won’t have any affect on Israeli policy.

And goods from the settlements? Some nuts, some olives and some bath products. The entire exports from the occupied territories, Palestinian and Israeli combined, are less than 2% of Israel’s total exports. So I imagine the settler bit will maybe affect 0.5% of exports, tops.