Should the international community sanction Israel over settler violence in West Bank?

If you want to look to people on the ground, look at the multiple reports from aid workers, medical staff and journalists on the ground, not to speak of the Palestinian civilians.
I hadn't heard of your Major Spencer so I looked him up to try to be as fair as possible. He was invited and accompanied by the IDF. Don't you think that this fact might possibly prejudice his account a teeny, weeny bit? He's also deeply unimpressive.
He got torn apart here by Mehdi Hasan and even the rather awful Piers Morgan

I said 'agenda' to you before and I say it again for Mr Israel Propaganda John Spencer.

That Iranian support is currently supporting tge Houthis against Saudi and they are blocking a different strait used to passage Saudi oil. It's also used to fund orher terrorists. The Iranian regime backed many terrorist organisations.

@FloralDeerPattern ,

‘For instance I would like the British charities that are funneling money to Israeli 'settler' terrorists in the occupied territory to be shut down immediately. I would also like for it to be made illegal to donate funds to what Ed Miliband called ethnic cleansing.’

The government have already opened an enquiry into it.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/charity-regulator-opens-inquiry-into-charities-working-in-illegal-israeli-settlements

I think it is illegal to donate to a charity who are actually setting up illegal settlements. I don’t know, though, what the status of a charity would be if they were collecting to fund medical treatment in the settlements, or something like that. There are a lot of grey areas in charity, and the amount is tiny (less than £2 mio).

Obviously it is too late to do anything about it but it does kind of pale into insignificance compared to what Hamas received after 7/10.

Bloomberg Estimates: Intelligence estimates reported by Bloomberg suggest Hamas received $8 million to $12 million per month via online fundraising networks posing as civilian charities following the October 7, 2023, attacks. 1]

Doesn’t make it right and settlers shouldn’t receive 1p to form new settlements.

@OpenScroller ,

‘Wes J Bryant is known primarily for his analysis and commentary.
He has not been on the ground in Gaza.

You can't give a informed opinion on something you're observing from thousands of miles away and who is he getting his information from?

I prefer opinions of those who have been on the ground in Gaza, such all the people who have given opinions from my previous post.

I think that's pretty logical, don't you?’

I don’t actually, especially when the who gets to be on the ground and what they see there is 100% controlled by the IDF. Spencer wasn’t allowed to wander around unimpeded or spend any length of time there. And, if you like opinions of those on the ground, why don’t you prefer others to Spencer when it comes to civilian casualty ratios? He was nowhere near the ground for that.

OTOH, Bryant, who was actually responsible for OKing (or not OKing) military attacks on ISIS, during the war on terror, actually knows about this stuff. They obtained thousands of data points from dozens of independent agencies on the ground and spent hundreds of hours reviewing them. I think I will take that over Spencer having a few drive throughs in an armoured truck.

‘The Independent Task Force on the Application of National Security Memorandum-20 to Israel (“the Task Force”) was formed to inform the reporting of the Departments of State and Defense required under NSM-20. It is an unaffiliated body of experts serving on a voluntary basis. TheTask Force reviewed several thousand incident reports gathered from several dozen credible organisations to reach its findings.’

I meant NO military capability.

Sounds like you don't like being corrected in your assertion that Hamas had military capability and now you don't want to talk about Hamas although you, yourself, raised it.

What do they call that?

Wes J Bryant is known primarily for his analysis and commentary.

He has not been on the ground in Gaza.

You can't give a informed opinion on something you're observing from thousands of miles away and who is he getting his information from?

I prefer opinions of those who have been on the ground in Gaza, such all the people who have given opinions from my previous post.

I think that's pretty logical, don't you?

@FloralDeerPattern ,

‘Hamas are a terrorist organisation. Palestine doesn't have a military. That is just facts.’

Well, to be fair, they also were the government of Gaza. It’s possible to be both, as the IRG are now in Iran.

@OpenScroller ,

You never came back on my previous post of military experts on Israel’s conduct in Gaza. I linked to an interesting article.

But, if you would prefer the full independent report to Biden, here it is:

www.justsecurity.org/94980/task-force-national-security-memorandum-20/

Imagine if we had to make a similar list for the IDF. We'd be typing for weeks.

You really should research stuff before repeating nonsense if you want to avoid looking like a fool. Hamas may not have air power (thankfully) but it is regarded as having substantial military capability for a non-state armed group -

• Manpower: Estimates put Hamas's pre war force at roughly 30,000–40,000 fighters. It had organized battalion-level formations rather than being merely a loose collection of guerrillas.
• Specialized assault forces and training: The October 7 operation involved coordinated infantry, rocket, drone, maritime and airborne/paraglider elements. CSIS described it as an evolution in Hamas's capabilities and tactics, while the Congressional Research Service described the operation as demonstrating a further evolution toward complex, multi-axis infantry operations.
• Small arms: AK-pattern assault rifles, various machine guns, pistols, and sniper rifles.
• Rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs): Used against Israeli vehicles, buildings, and defensive positions.
• Anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs): Including systems such as the Kornet, which can engage armored vehicles at considerably greater range than an RPG.
• Rockets: A large inventory of locally manufactured and imported rockets, including short- and longer-range systems. These formed the major part of the opening barrage on October 7.
• Mortars: Used for indirect fire against Israeli positions and communities near Gaza.
• Drones: Commercial-style quadcopters and other unmanned aircraft were used for reconnaissance and attacks, including against border surveillance and defensive infrastructure.
• Explosives: Improvised explosive devices, grenades, and breaching charges were used during the assault on the Gaza border barrier.
• Airborne infiltration equipment: Hamas fighters used paragliders/paramotors to cross the border in the initial attack.
• Maritime equipment: Small boats and other equipment were used by Hamas naval/commando elements to attempt infiltration from the sea.
• Tunnels: Not technically a weapon, but an important military capability—Hamas had an extensive underground network used for movement, storage, command and protection.
• Weapons training and instruction in missile/rocket production. CFR reports that Hamas developed greater capacity to manufacture its own missiles after training with the IRGC and Iranian-supported groups.
• Irregular/asymmetric warfare: Iran's Quds Force specializes in training partner forces in tactics suited to fighting technologically superior conventional militaries. CSIS describes Quds Force activities as including training, advising, equipping and funding partner forces.
• Training outside Gaza: There have been reports of Hamas personnel being sent to Iran for training. CFR reports an estimate of roughly 500 Hamas fighters trained in Iran in preparation for the October 7 attacks, although that figure and the precise purpose of the training should be treated as a reported estimate rather than an established fact.
• Transfer of expertise: Iranian assistance wasn't necessarily just "Iranian instructors teaching Hamas." Hamas developed substantial indigenous capabilities, including its own rocket production, while benefiting from Iranian technical knowledge and assistance.

Propaganda Arm
Hamas developed its own sophisticated propaganda apparatus while operating within a long-standing Iranian support relationship that included training, guidance, technology and communications expertise.

‘John Spencer is probably the foremost expert to give an opinion on this war considering his credentials in urban warfare. Who has challenged him and what were their credentials?’

What access do you think he got and who controlled it?

Here is an actual U.S military targeting expert who forensically destroys Spencer’s arguments.

www.wesjbryant.com/opeds/we-must-face-the-hard-truth-in-gaza

‘don't see the opinions of the experts above platformed in MSM as a counter to the claims of genocide, do you? Why do you think that is?’

I have seen them in MSM but they don’t really pass the smell test right now. Just look at Gaza and see what Israel have done, and how they have treated the civilians.

Also, to me, once Israel refused to let any journalists in, I knew it wasn’t going to be pretty. Of course, they called it safety, but these war journalists are happy to risk their lives and have covered virtually all modern wars.

‘I admit to being shocked on researching the bias of the UN and NGOs operating in Gaza, which I had no idea about before the war, and there is plenty to discredit them. I haven't sought it, the evidence is there!

It makes sense with the NGOs anyway, as they need to be in Hamas's favour to operate there safely. Kind of explains why doctors 'testifying' about the kids they allegedly SAW being sniped by the IDF, didn't see or mention Hamas at all despite the fact we know they are in the hospitals.’

How did you ‘research’ the bias? These organisations are massive, thousands to tens of thousands of people. Of course you will find some Hamas sympathisers within them. But the vast majority are just doing their jobs.

And, as for medicin sans frontieres, they are doctors who volunteer. Do you think all of them collectively lied about what they saw? All bad witnesses? Because I haven’t seen a single report from a doctor denying that there was real
hunger among the civilians in Gaza.

‘Don't really have an opinion on Smotrich and G'vir as I haven't researched them enough or Israeli internal politics and infighting. My opinion of the 'settler violence' in the West Bank is that it's definitely not one sided though.
I was referring to the way the war in Gaza has actually been CONDUCTED and I don't think either of them have had much of a part to play in that have they?’

So you have researched in detail how they fought and the bias of NGOs working in Gaza, but not two prominent ministers, much covered in the MSM, who have actively called for settling Gaza and the West Bank?

And you don’t think that the war aims feed into the way it is fought?

‘Why do you think I 'literally see one side of the story and accept it without any reservations'? Do you think I have skin in the game, I'm getting paid, a bot?’

No, I doubt the above. I do think that most of your ‘research’ comes from your social media feed though, that confirms your existing bias. None of your posts even acknowledge that Israel could be meaningfully culpable in any way.

‘Maybe I just see thing with a bit more clarity than you because I came into this with zero biases or preconceived perceptions.’

What is my bias then? I think my posts are pretty balanced.

You forget Andrew Fox and these -

The-October-7-War-Press-Release.pdf

John Spencer is probably the foremost expert to give an opinion on this war considering his credentials in urban warfare. Who has challenged him and what were their credentials?

Yes, it is a shame there are not more real experts giving an opinion but realistically that is obviously due to concerns about a backlash.

I don't see the opinions of the experts above platformed in MSM as a counter to the claims of genocide, do you? Why do you think that is?

I admit to being shocked on researching the bias of the UN and NGOs operating in Gaza, which I had no idea about before the war, and there is plenty to discredit them. I haven't sought it, the evidence is there!

It makes sense with the NGOs anyway, as they need to be in Hamas's favour to operate there safely. Kind of explains why doctors 'testifying' about the kids they allegedly SAW being sniped by the IDF, didn't see or mention Hamas at all despite the fact we know they are in the hospitals.

Don't really have an opinion on Smotrich and G'vir as I haven't researched them enough or Israeli internal politics and infighting. My opinion of the 'settler violence' in the West Bank is that it's definitely not one sided though.

I was referring to the way the war in Gaza has actually been CONDUCTED and I don't think either of them have had much of a part to play in that have they?

Why do you think I 'literally see one side of the story and accept it without any reservations'? Do you think I have skin in the game, I'm getting paid, a bot?

Maybe I just see thing with a bit more clarity than you because I came into this with zero biases or preconceived perceptions.

@OpenScroller ,

I speak to one person IRL who is similar to you. They literally see one side of the story and accept it without any reservations.

I’m kind of guessing these real experts are Richard Kemp and John Spencer? There don’t seem to be too many of them, and others challenge them.

The problem of debating someone like you is you see any experts such as the UN, Medecin sans frontieres etc etc as biased and antisemitic (Jew haters I imagine is what you call them) and you will desperately seek any straw you can to discredit them.

And you will wilfully ignore the likes of Smotrich and Ben G’vir and their open advocacy of ethnic cleansing. You probably think they are ‘bad apples’ despite the fact they are full ministers of state.

If I am wrong about any of the above, please let me know which ones? And then we could have an honest basis for discussion.

Are you Israeli?

Have you read any reports from real military experts (rather than armchair ones) into the way Israel conducted this war?

Maybe you should.

@FloralDeerPattern ,

You are ducking what you believe about 7/10. Do you wholeheartedly condemn it and all who participated? Do you believe it was some kind of military escalation?

‘At what point did it stop becoming a 'show of solidarity' and start to become suspicious and disappointing? Not when the Israeli Defence Minister announced he was going to start starving every man, woman and child and began bombing bakeries, that was understandable. Was it when hospitals were being leveled and premature babies left to die? Whole apartment blocks full of sleeping children reduced to craters? When foreign aid workers were killed? When rescue workers were lined up and shot and buried in a shallow grave? When a little girl begged for her life alone in a car with her dead relatives only to be shot at 100s of times? Where was the line when it stopped becoming solidarity and became something else?’

I think that is a fair question which I was also asking myself.

I think when it became clear that the war objectives went beyond the return of the hostages and the destruction of Hamas, which are totally acceptable military goals. Once Hamas was severely degraded and Israel was denying food and medicine to enter Gaza (not initially, but later).

It is hard (maybe impossible) to put a moment on it. I think governments had the same issues. For Israel to try to destroy Hamas and get the hostages back was right and proper. Their use of 2,000 pound bombs and the ‘scorpion protocol’, their treatment of POWs and their seeming permanent occupation of captured territories and what looks very much like ethnic cleansing is clearly not right and no one should be waving Israeli flags now.

@FloralDeerPattern ,

‘And while Israel were bombing Gaza? Not before Israel retaliated, as Israel were killing innocent people too. They were planning a future ceasefire march when they saw an escalation in conflict. ‘

No, Israel were not bombing Gaza, if you read the article. The application went into the MET on the 7/10 itself to hold a march on the 14th.

And the 7/10 wasn’t an ‘escalation in conflict’, it was a cowardly attack on unarmed civilians with no military objective whatsoever. it was just a slaughter of the innocent by thugs; the words human animals is very aposite for those who personally took part in 7/10.

‘I presume you are also suspicious and disappointed in the people that have taken part any pro Israel march since Oct 7 since that involved protesting(rather than organising a future protest) as Israel were literally killing innocent people?’

Not in the direct aftermath of 7/10. It was right to show solidarity with Israel after it, just as it was to show solidarity with the U.S after 9/11.

More recently, I would condemn pro Israel marches and the waving of Israeli flags.

You may be right, if we take the view that they don't actually care about the Palestinian people at all. Which of course, the evidence does support.

@Twiglets1 ,

‘It was such a stupid thing for Hamas to do…’

I don’t think it was stupid at all, I think it was actually quite smart. It was genuinely evil though.

Hamas had their tunnels well prepared with food and water, and were also ready to sacrifice themselves. Yahya Sinwar was a bright guy and taught himself Hebrew to ‘better understand my enemy’.

I think that they calculated that if they were battered hard enough, the western world would intervene on their side. It might have happened had the most transactional president of all time not been elected.