UAE plans to bankroll first ‘planned community’ in south Gaza

And that's a valid enough point, there are obvious risks and flaws with this plan. I mentioned upthread I don't trust the UAE government, and clearly nobody is going into this out of the goodness of their hearts. This would not be my first choice if better options were available. It's just that thus far, it's either that or tent festering.

It’s not reconstruction though is it. It’s development and not for the sake of the Palestinians. Once these luxury resorts are built on their land, the closest they will get to one is a job cleaning the toilets.

That's not only a goalpost move, because you've gone from one body to multiple, but it also isn't something you can prove as a fact. It's merely an assertion you're making. And what is factual is that one Israeli body is missing in Gaza still and the world is not up in arms.

The situation in Gaza is horrific, and if me saying I didn't accept it would have the slightest bearing on anything then I'd say I didn't accept it. Unfortunately the test of whether something exists or not isn't deciding whether it's acceptable. I have no interest in turning this discussion into outrage swapping, not least because I have so much of it to go around. Way beyond just Hamas and Israel.

My concern is about reconstruction, because unlike you I don't think Gazans being stuck in tents is the preferable option. And that's what this thread is about.

I’m not going to argue about the fact that the world and even Israel may have accepted that Rani’s body cannot be recovered. I’m talking about the fact that if a few Israeli bodies were to be purposefully bulldozed into the sea, there would be an international outcry, let alone thousands.

So do you accept that Gaza has been stolen from the Palestinian people and do you think that is acceptable.

Yup and it’s been going on for almost a century. Germany rebuilt itself very quickly to become the strongest economy in the Europe. Why. Because they were allowed to.

Their country was split in half. One half controlled by the soviets, the other half controlled by the US. Their country wasn’t reunited for over 40 years. If you go to Berlin you can still see the remnants of the wall ffs.

Of course, you know all this. But you want to downplay it because it suits your narrative that the Gazan people have had the very worst treatment in the whole history of humanity.

Their country was split in half. One half controlled by the soviets, the other half controlled by the US. Their country wasn’t reunited for over 40 years. If you go to Berlin you can still see the remnants of the wall ffs.

Of course, you know all this. But you want to downplay it because it suits your narrative that the Gazan people have had the very worst treatment in the whole history of humanity.

No, just one that doesn't affect any of the material reality here. Outrage clearly isn't creating reconstruction options. I don't object to people calling this situation whatever they want, my concern is how it's going to be improved for Gazans. I think assuming that slagging off Israel amounts to any useful action is a real risk here, actually. The goodwill that exists towards Palestinians might be channellable into something that could actually help them.

On the Ran Gvili point, I'll answer here as it's getting unwieldy having two separate conversations going on.

Having googled him and followed the story somewhat is exactly why I know the world isn't up in arms. That and the plan that is the subject of this thread. You've provided a link to one demo in Israel, and presumably we all know that Israelis are more interested in Israeli bodies than the rest of the world are? As I said, an odd hill to die on.

Yes but Germans were not stateless and were allowed to rebuild their country.

So basically outrage at injustice is a selective concept.

Do you think that a protest in Israel amounts to the world being up in arms? Because that's what you said. Ran Gvili's body is not even a news story of much importance outside Israel itself now. It certainly isn't causing any widespread consternation. The news cycle has very much moved on. This is an odd hill to die on.

It is a fact of humanity that the losing side in any war doesn’t get to set the terms of reconstruction. Gazan citizens will have the choice to live in a neighbourhood free from Hamas, with access to housing, food, water, medical care and work. Many will think the freedoms they give up will be worth it. Some will do it out of desperation because living permanently in tents is a horrible life. Others will refuse. It is up to each individual Gazan to make their choice.

Rather than getting sanctimonious, those of us in the west should have a look at what life was like for German citizens immediately after the Second World War.

And none of this does the slightest thing to improve life for a single Gazan.

Because this is where we are. The Gazans are paying the biggest price for a set of circumstances that they didn't bring about all by themselves, that plenty of other actors are also responsible for. They are in an awful position. For those Gazans who don't prefer long term tent festering, and I hope we can all agree that they're not a Borg and will have different views, nobody is currently offering anything else.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/thousands-protest-the-government-demand-return-of-ran-gvilis-body-at-demonstrations-across-israel/

Will there be any protests anywhere for the Palestinian bodies.

The fact is Gaza has now been stolen from the Palestinians and the theft is being touted as a solution for the poor Palestinians. It is as simple as that. It is disgusting colonialism in its purest form.

This is a separate point to whether the world would be up in arms if it were one Israeli's body still there. They're not. You can make the point about how awful it is that so many bodies are lost in Gaza and there seems no realistic prospect of recovery or burial without saying things that are demonstrably not true.

I actually wouldn't.

I would do anything not to bring my children up in a tent in Gaza with no prospects for doing anything other than perpetuating the same cycle of misery & poverty.

Why shouldn't the people of Gaza have the basic things we take for granted in life such as decent housing and healthcare? Hating Israel a bit less could be beneficial to the prospects of their children and as for being brainwashed, that is happening already with Hamas propaganda.

Even Israel accepted that the last body is possibly irrecoverable. They tried to find it and it seems it has been accepted that they can’t find it. No one is even talking about trying to recover any Palestinian bodies.

You say 'bodies' plural here, and 'was'. But previously you used the present tense and said body in the singular, ie what's happening now. That's what we're talking about.

The world is clearly not up in arms about that one body still being in Gaza and it's not preventing any of the plans, which the person's family are actually pretty fucked off about.

There are multiple factors that led to the end of Japanese imperialism, and yes the economic support is one of them. This is one of the reasons I'm in favour of giving the Gazan people better options.

I don't see anything to suggest this proposal would include the whole population of Gaza, and indeed the security requirements would suggest otherwise. But even if it did, we are still left with the unfortunate reality that nobody has yet identified a better reconstruction option that stands any chance of happening. If you think you'd prefer the tent festering, Rohingya treatment, that's up to you but presumably you understand that Gazans are not a hive mind and might disagree?