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Conflict in the Middle East

Arab rights movements need to purify themselves of anti Semitism

109 replies

Carla786 · 20/01/2026 19:24

The historical roots of anti Semitism in Arab nationalist movements are very important. It does not make the cause itself wrong.

What it does do, though, is ensure that very unhealthy patterns are handed down.

A prominent example is Nasser's use of Nazis to write anti Israel propaganda.

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KoalaKoKo · 22/01/2026 21:35

Carla786 · 22/01/2026 20:24

Palestinians also need to face how other Palestinians and Arabs were complicit in their plight.

The displacement following absentee landlords selling land to Israelis was wrong. But why are the Arab landlords who did this not equally blamed as the Israelis who bought it?

You say Palestinians were complicit in jewish people’s suffering under the nazis, personally I have not seen any evidence of that. I have heard of no connection between Palestinians and German nazis! To say some leaders were anti semitic as a justification of all that followed is not a real justification, if someone did to Americans what was done to Palestinians and justified it with any of the crazy shit Trump has said we would all say that he does not represent every American!

I do know that many Palestinian families took in jewish refugees - if you watch the documentary Tantura the original settlers interviewed say that they first came to the region as refugees and initially stayed with Palestinian families, the Israeli settlers say it was happy and they played with the Palestinian children. They then say it all changed when someone up high decided that the port was strategic and should be taken so Israeli soldiers came and wiped out the village, brutally - murder, rape, villagers set on fire etc… They say their relationship with the Palestinians changed after that point, which is sort of understandable.

I am glad you do not debate historic crimes or the Palestinian’s suffering. All the jewish people I know in real life are horrified by Israel’s actions, historically and today. There are people online though who deny it or make excuses for it. Obviously generations have been born in the last 78 years bear no responsibility for what happened in 1948 and the land is their home now, just as it is the Palestinian’s home. The problem is that the
murder, displacement and settlements are ongoing and still happen. I do not blame jewish people or even Israeli’s for what is happening to Palestinians, many Israeli’s do not agree with it - I blame the people who take part in it, defend or deny it. The only way there will be peace in the lands is if there are equal rights and people on both sides are just allowed to live their lives! Equal rights and compromise is what brought peace in Northern Ireland - I strongly believe this is the only solution for Israel and Palestine. I actually don’t see a 2 state solution as being workable but think it should be a united state of Israel and Palestine with equal rights and all religions respected.

Carla786 · 22/01/2026 21:24

Carla786 · 22/01/2026 04:00

I never said only Arabs need to self-reflect.

My post focused on Arabs as I've seen virtually no Palestinian rights campaigners reflect on their history the way for example the Israeli new historians movement have.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians

And I think there is MORE need for Arab campaigners to reflect on this. Some Israeli forces during the 1948 war was responsible for terrible things like the Deir Yassan massacre, but they never had leaders endorsing things like 'kill the Arabs wherever you find them, this pleases God' the way vile people like the Mufti & other prominent figures were saying about Jews.

Another example would be Ha'aretz. They are often fiercely critical of Israeli government & other institutions, have reported on the gang- rape and murder of a Palestinian Bedouin woman during the 1948 war (the Nirim Affair, this was the basis for Adania Shibli's recent novel Minor Detail. David Ben-Gurion condemned this at the time but it was since hushed up.
the Yemenite babies affair, and much else.

Palestinians do not seem to have similarly self-critical publications. Part of the problem is that Hamas suppress criticism historical & current, but this doesn't excuse the lack from activists in US & UK etc (unless there is and I'm just unaware of it)

How self-critical wider Israeli society is is another matter, but there clearly is a strong strand of it, and the government to some extent does acknowledge crimes.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/nov/04/israel1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirim_affair

As detailed here, the Israeli organisation B'tselem has been (one of its members, Vivian Silver, was tragically one of those murdered on October 7) key in reporting on sexual abuse of Palestinian civilians & prisoners during the Gaza War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_against_Palestinians_during_the_Gaza_war

Israel learns of a hidden shame in its early years

Soldiers raped and killed Bedouin girl in the Negev.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/nov/04/israel1

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Carla786 · 22/01/2026 20:24

Palestinians also need to face how other Palestinians and Arabs were complicit in their plight.

The displacement following absentee landlords selling land to Israelis was wrong. But why are the Arab landlords who did this not equally blamed as the Israelis who bought it?

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Carla786 · 22/01/2026 20:20

BollyMolly · 22/01/2026 08:12

When did it become the responsibility of the oppressed to promote positive views and opinions of those who kill, oppress, and deny them?

This isn't about promoting positive views of Israelis. This about confronting the history of Nazi support in the historical Palestinian movement by figures like Mufti, Nasser, and organisations like Al-Futuwwa in the 1920s and from then on.

The Palestinian side also bear responsibility for why compromise did not happen : what effect do you think these Nazi links would have had? Anti Semitic massacres like the 1929 Hebron massacre egged on by the Mufti?

Don't Palestinians still treat the Mufti as a heroic freedom fighter? And Nasser as a brave ally?

You should also note that these Nazi links were legitimising hatred of Jews everywhere, not just Israelis (not that that would have been much better)

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Carla786 · 22/01/2026 20:16

Islandsofsand · 22/01/2026 07:43

Do you think it takes an academic to know that those things are wrong? Doesn’t delegitimise the basis of Palestinians grievances.

I said 'historian' as that was what pp said. My focus was on campaigners.

Of course I don't think it takes an academic to know they are wrong. I haven't seen any Palestinian campaigners address the ugly historical parts of the movement though. Do you know any examples?

Of course this doesn't deligutimise Palestinian suffering.

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Carla786 · 22/01/2026 20:13

BollyMolly · 22/01/2026 19:37

We do at least acknowledge that there was a lot of human suffering involved in the creation of Pakistan, thanks to western colonialism.

I think we do acknowledge that Palestinian Arabs suffered too (as did Israelis killed), surely? In the mainstream narrative that is?

Colonialism did not help Pakistan but it's too simplistic to blame extremists like RSS and others on both sides (as well as Sikh) who encouraged violence solely on the West. Mountbatten was a poof choice for Viceroy, definitely.

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Carla786 · 22/01/2026 20:11

BollyMolly · 22/01/2026 06:45

Would you also agree that the Zionist movement would benefit from re-examining long-standing false narratives, like the claim that the land Israel was built on was empty? What about other narratives that dehumanise Palestinians and deny their rights?

Anti semitism will continue to fuel itself as long as Zionism continues to deny truth.

Surely even hard-right Likud members now don't claim the land was literally 'empty'? If it were empty, how do they explain the war of 1948?

Jewish people doing any kind of morally questionable thing (as all groups do) is NEVER an excuse for anti Semitism.

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Carla786 · 22/01/2026 20:09

Islandsofsand · 22/01/2026 19:39

Very different situation. Involvement of Muslim leaders from initial stage. Still horrendous results though on people of all faiths. Wasn’t one sided disposition of Muslims.

I know...to be clear, I was saying that Pakistani identity was by definition not really a thing before the 1940s, but we don't use that as a reason to say it's not legitimate.

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Islandsofsand · 22/01/2026 19:39

Carla786 · 22/01/2026 19:30

A lot of countries are recent creations. Pakistan was only founded on year before Israel. That doesn't make Pakistani identity & ancestral attachment to the land 'unreal'.

Very different situation. Involvement of Muslim leaders from initial stage. Still horrendous results though on people of all faiths. Wasn’t one sided disposition of Muslims.

BollyMolly · 22/01/2026 19:37

Carla786 · 22/01/2026 19:30

A lot of countries are recent creations. Pakistan was only founded on year before Israel. That doesn't make Pakistani identity & ancestral attachment to the land 'unreal'.

We do at least acknowledge that there was a lot of human suffering involved in the creation of Pakistan, thanks to western colonialism.

Carla786 · 22/01/2026 19:30

Carla786 · 22/01/2026 19:27

I don't agree with that though.. A lot of the 1948 Palestinian Arabs had been there for an extremely long time, even if there wasn't a modern 'Palestinian' identity : it's not surprising they would have regarded it as their ancestral home.

A lot of countries are recent creations. Pakistan was only founded on year before Israel. That doesn't make Pakistani identity & ancestral attachment to the land 'unreal'.

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Carla786 · 22/01/2026 19:27

hazelnutvanillalatte · 22/01/2026 08:41

I never said there weren't. But the movements are inherently antagonistic in nature. The modern Palestinian identity was only created in order to mobilise against Israel, and the action groups don't want peace or coexistence.

I don't agree with that though.. A lot of the 1948 Palestinian Arabs had been there for an extremely long time, even if there wasn't a modern 'Palestinian' identity : it's not surprising they would have regarded it as their ancestral home.

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HappyFace2025 · 22/01/2026 12:43

Kingscallops · 22/01/2026 08:01

Quite, except one form of racism is legitimised, including from posters on this thread.

This 💯 %

OpheliaIsntMad · 22/01/2026 12:33

BollyMolly · 22/01/2026 08:12

When did it become the responsibility of the oppressed to promote positive views and opinions of those who kill, oppress, and deny them?

I’m not sure what you mean by this?

OpheliaIsntMad · 22/01/2026 12:31

Carla786 · 22/01/2026 06:14

Re more successful Muslim States being less anti Semitic :

It is significant that the productive Muslim empires like the Spanish Nasrids, the Indian Mughals and the early Ottomans very often treated Jews well. As Bernard Lewis points out in What Went Wrong? , the successful Islamic states were much more religiously tolerant, did not impose Taliban-style sharia penalties etc. The huge irony is that extremist Salafi & Wahhabi-influenced groups like Isis were trying to create an 'Islamic State' totally different to what actually great historical Muslim empires were like.

Absolutely 👍🏼
Tolerant, liberal countries and societies - whatever their religion - or lack of religion- are more successful in economic growth and in personal freedom and autonomy.

Islandsofsand · 22/01/2026 11:46

quantumbutterfly · 22/01/2026 09:29

Yes, it would be nice to see policy and practice coming down a bit harder on demonstrations calling for death to jews in the UK. You're right.
I would like to see less institutionalised antisemitism in the unions and police force.

Completely agree. Of course police should come down hard on calls for deaths of anyone and actual violence! Wherever they are in the world, London or the West Bank.

KoalaKoKo · 22/01/2026 11:11

hazelnutvanillalatte · 22/01/2026 08:41

I never said there weren't. But the movements are inherently antagonistic in nature. The modern Palestinian identity was only created in order to mobilise against Israel, and the action groups don't want peace or coexistence.

So you are saying the people weren’t living there before Israel was created or are you saying they were living there but with no identity or sense of belonging to the land, they didn’t feel the land they had lived in for generations was home until Israel took it from them? That it is all just an elaborate scam to make the violent displacement seem like a bad thing?

quantumbutterfly · 22/01/2026 09:29

Islandsofsand · 22/01/2026 09:22

So we need both sides to reflect on the racism that’s aggravating the situation and until this is mainstream and embedded in policy AND practice of all countries- then can’t blame one side over another for lack of reflection.

Yes, it would be nice to see policy and practice coming down a bit harder on demonstrations calling for death to jews in the UK. You're right.
I would like to see less institutionalised antisemitism in the unions and police force.

Islandsofsand · 22/01/2026 09:22

Kingscallops · 22/01/2026 08:54

Yet, some have no problem putting that exact responsibility on Jews.

So we need both sides to reflect on the racism that’s aggravating the situation and until this is mainstream and embedded in policy AND practice of all countries- then can’t blame one side over another for lack of reflection.

Kingscallops · 22/01/2026 08:54

BollyMolly · 22/01/2026 08:12

When did it become the responsibility of the oppressed to promote positive views and opinions of those who kill, oppress, and deny them?

Yet, some have no problem putting that exact responsibility on Jews.

hazelnutvanillalatte · 22/01/2026 08:41

Carla786 · 22/01/2026 06:06

No.

There are genuine issues Palestinians and men have which deserve proper advocacy. Neither movement is intrinsically toxic.

Otoh, I agree that the most visible and apparently largest swathes of both ARE hateful.

I never said there weren't. But the movements are inherently antagonistic in nature. The modern Palestinian identity was only created in order to mobilise against Israel, and the action groups don't want peace or coexistence.

BollyMolly · 22/01/2026 08:12

When did it become the responsibility of the oppressed to promote positive views and opinions of those who kill, oppress, and deny them?

Kingscallops · 22/01/2026 08:01

Islandsofsand · 22/01/2026 07:59

There was a clear racial, cultural and religious element in the creation of Israel and its continued treatment of one part of the population of the region.

You can’t selectively reflect selectively on racism against Jews without considering how racism against others has also impacted on the people in the ME.

Antisemitism exists as does racism against Arabs.

Quite, except one form of racism is legitimised, including from posters on this thread.

Islandsofsand · 22/01/2026 07:59

Kingscallops · 22/01/2026 06:49

No racism 'fuels' itself because what you're saying is justifying it. Yuk.

There was a clear racial, cultural and religious element in the creation of Israel and its continued treatment of one part of the population of the region.

You can’t selectively reflect selectively on racism against Jews without considering how racism against others has also impacted on the people in the ME.

Antisemitism exists as does racism against Arabs.

Kingscallops · 22/01/2026 07:59

Islandsofsand · 22/01/2026 07:43

Do you think it takes an academic to know that those things are wrong? Doesn’t delegitimise the basis of Palestinians grievances.

You said there wasn't a lot of evidence showing Israeli reflection. The poster has presented you with some.