4 countries to boycott Eurovision due to Israel’s continued inclusion

Definitely not one of your characteristics!!

Thank you @SisterTeatime

Never to my knowledge - if I get something wrong and I can see that I have, then I normally acknowledge it & say I stand corrected or similar.

You got 3 things wrong in one post & haven’t acknowledged even with all the evidence I posted that Israel is indeed the only country that could be referred to a democracy in the Middle East.

You are continuing to derail the thread now. Do people want to return to discussing Eurovision or not?

Did you mean to be so rude?

Yes, it is quite shocking to read people saying things like who gives a crap that Israel is a democracy (albeit a flawed one with an electoral system that makes for coalitions that make extreme parties more likely to gain power).

It’s helpful when posters share information and I appreciate @Twiglets1 doing so on this thread.

but misinformation is another big derailment because it has to be corrected.

Lol. How many times have you posted misinformation and refused to back down on it?

Interrogating individuals posters is the biggest deflection of all and it happens on almost every thread, trying to belittle anyone that supports Israel.

No one on the pro Pal side picks the worst offenders up on it so presumably they think it’s ok to turn every debate nasty. But it doesn’t do their cause any good at all, quite the reverse.

Of course they are to do with the Eurovision when Israels treatment of Palestinians was a primary reason for these countries withdrawing. Not whether or not Israel is a democracy. I don't think that that was mentioned by a single country.

It's a discussion forum. People ask questions, especially when posters aren't very clear in their posts. That isn't interrogation that is looking for clarity so people can understand what posters are trying to say. If people don't wish to be understood that's fine but accusing others of interrogation because they look for clarification is a bit much.

Maybe take it up with the poster above who said who gives a crap about Israel being a democracy? I think you'll find a lot of people who have skin in the game care very much. Its the ultimate luxury belief to not care. It is relevant because lack of understanding lies behind a lot of the singling out of Israel for perceived crimes by people in Europe, people who do have the luxury of living in a democracy but yet seem so casual about it.

You scream deflection about everything but I wasn’t the one who mentioned Israel & democracy @thingsarelookingupfornigel introduced that deflection ( amongst others) so take it up with them.

If people post misinformation I will correct them. It’s bad enough to see threads routinely derailed by personal insults and pile ons … but misinformation is another big derailment because it has to be corrected.

Israel are the only ( albeit flawed) democracy in the Middle East, they do have the right to defend themselves from terrorists and no, not everyone who criticises the Israeli government is antisemitic @thingsarelookingupfornigel glad we got that cleared up. Now we can return to the actual thread which is supposed to be about Eurovision.

I thought the same thing. How is copy and pasting about Israel being a democracy on topic? Countries pulled out of the Eurovision because of Israel treatment of Palestinians. Some people obviously don't want to discuss that and that's fine but pulling the thread off track with long copy and pastes about whether Israel is a democracy or not comes across as yet another deflection.

The countries who pulled out were clear about their reasons for leaving, boycotts are a peaceful and legitimate means of protest. You can understand why broadcasters would have reservations about Israel given their horrific treatment of journalists. We all saw that awful video of Israel blowing up journalists in the 'double tap' they did on the hospital, 5 journalists and 4 health care workers were killed because there was a Reuters camera there. It's not just in Gaza that journalists are murdered either. There was Israels attack on the media in Lebanon that killed a Reuters journalist and injured 5 others. Then there was Shireen who was murdered in the West Bank back in 2022. Just a few of Israels attacks on the press.

Surely people understand why broadcasters are wary of working with Israel when so many of their colleagues, who are supposed to have special status under humanitarian law, end up dead when they report in the vicinity of the IDF.

Its very relevant to the topic, much more relevant than interrogating me on a range of issues that were nothing to do with EV.

Talk about "deflection" !

The thread is not about whether Israel is a democracy or not, its not even if Israel has a right to defend itself, which of course it does.

Its about whether they should be in EV or not, based on their actions in Gaza and the West bank.
They have barred journalists in Gaza and have a civilian death rate far in access of other conflicts, even when they allowed air drops, journalists were banned from filming any of the devastation, the IDF has done all it can to "try" hide its actions.
Then there are the statements from the Israeli Govt, many in Israel clearly see the Palestinians as sub human.

For the vast majority of people, what they have done to the Palestinians and their total refusal to even consider a 2 state solution is beyond the pale.

Thats why they need to be excluded and to save the competition for many years to come.

32 countries don't even recognise Israel, many of those ban Israelis from entering and most of those bans are longstanding. I.e nothing to do with the recent war but linked to those countries refusal to accept Israel's existence, in some cases from the beginning.

We shouldn’t- people act like the UN is neutral but of course it isn’t. And some of their most prominent officials show their bias very clearly yet people still act as though the UN is an impartial body.

And just a reminder, when the UN is held up as some sort of neutral arbiter or moral force in this debate, that 96 of 164 (ie more than half) countries in the UN are authoritarian or hybrid regimes in this index. Remind me why we should listen to them?

The latest index for Middle East & North Africa shows Israel as being the only country in the region to be defined as having a flawed democracy. They now score 31st in the list of 167 counties in the world for democracy.

The vast majority of the other countries & territories in that region have an authoritarian regime namely:

Algeria (110)
Bahrain (138)
Egypt (128)
Iran (154)
Iraq (126)
Jordan (115)
Kuwait (130)
Lebanon (109)
Libya (140)
Oman (120)
Palestine (112)
Qatar (117)
Saudi Arabia (148)
Sudan (162)
Syria (163)
UAE (119)
Yemen (115)

Countries with Hybrid regimes:

Morocco (91)
Tunisia (93)

The worst performing country in the whole list (167/167) is Afghanistan which at the time of the list being compiled was categorised as being in the Asia & Australasia region.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index

Exactly @Twiglets1 and thank you for getting the thread back to discussion of actual issues. Of course Israel's democracy is 'flawed' a subject that is a constant subject of debate in Israel (I think we know what happens to those that question Hamas in Gaza) That Israel maintains such a high level of democracy in the face of constant terrorism is extraordinary. All countries suspend civil liberties to some degree in times of war and in the face of terrorism - we have done here in the UK many times. But of course Israel is always expected to achieve standards that noone else in the region is.

Definitions:

Full democracies are countries where civil liberties and fundamental political freedoms are not only respected but also reinforced by a political culture conducive to the thriving of democratic principles. These nations have a valid system of governmental checks and balances, an independent judiciary whose decisions are enforced, governments that function adequately, and diverse and independent media. These nations have only limited problems in democratic functioning.

Flawed democracies are countries where elections are fair and free and basic civil liberties are honoured, but may have issues (e.g. media freedom infringement and minor suppression of political opposition and critics). These countries can have significant faults in other democratic aspects, including an underdeveloped political culture, low levels of participation in politics, and issues in the functioning of governance.

Hybrid regimes are countries with regular electoral fraud, preventing them from being fair and free democracies. These countries commonly have non-independent judiciaries, widespread corruption, and weak rule of law. Political opponents and the media face harassment and pressure from governments. These countries have a less-developed political culture, lower levels of participation in politics, and more pronounced issues in the functioning of governance compared to flawed democracies.

Authoritarian regimes are countries where political pluralism is nonexistent or severely limited. These nations are often absolute monarchies or dictatorships and may have some conventional institutions of democracy but with meagre significance. Infringements and abuses of civil liberties are commonplace, elections (if they take place) are not fair or free (especially sham elections), the media is often state-owned or controlled by groups associated with the ruling regime, the judiciary is not independent, and censorship and suppression of governmental criticism are commonplace.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index

So much wrong with this post.

Pro Israel people say that Israel has the right to defend itself from terrorists such as Hamas, not "Palestinians."

We don't say that everyone who objects to what Israel is doing is antisemitic, only those that seek to villainise civilians or the whole country because they disagree with what the Government is doing re the war.

And as for democracy, The Economist publish an annual Democracy Index. The one published in 2024 ranked Israel 30th in the world, right after the U.S. and followed by Portugal. I will find a later one shortly but this article explains it succinctly.

Israel ranked as the only democracy in Mideast, but it isn't 'flawless' - survey

The political regime in Israel is a "flawed democracy," said the recently published annual Democracy Index by The Economist. According to the rating, Israel remains the only democracy in the Middle East, traditionally the worst-ranking region that has no "full democracies."

The index ranked Israel 30th in the world. It comes right after Estonia, Malta and the United States, and is followed by Portugal, Slovenia and Botswana.
As the report highlights, despite being positioned in the "flawed" group, Israel remains the only democracy in the Middle East. Tunisia and Morocco are classified as "hybrid regimes," while the rest of the region's 20 countries fall within the category of "authoritarian" regimes.

The report says the the region's accumulated score lowered across all five evaluated categories: electoral process and pluralism, functioning government, political participation, political culture and civil liberties. Only one country across the Middle East, the United Arab Emirates, saw an improved score over last year.

The rating is traditionally led by Norway, followed by New Zealand, Iceland, Sweden and Finland, and the 2023 Index is no exception. As for the bottom of the list, the five lowest-ranking countries are Syria, Central African Republic, North Korea, Myanmar and, finally, Afghanistan.

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/politics/1708324889-israel-remains-only-democracy-in-mideast-but-it-isn-t-flawless-report

The very sad thing is that once a position has been taken, some people will defend it to the hilt. And stop questioning why, despite all the evidence. Throwing terms around such as the idea that Israel is the only democracy in the ME, which it so certainly is not, that Israel has the right to defend itself at the expense of the Palestinians, so what does it matter, and everyone who objects to what Israel is doing is antisemitic. Makes life easier for them.

Yes the fact that the we are discussing participation by Israel in Eurovision as a consequence of war crimes is extremely lamentable.

Hector a poster? She has made a statement that was misunderstood by multiple posters, is it hectoring to ask that the poster clarify what she means? You said yourself that you don't really know what she means I have never seen a ‘pro-Israel’ poster on here state support for settlers in the West Bank, which I think was at least partly what she described as unfair.

What about the settlers is 'unfair' killing people, clubbing old ladies with sticks, burning children to death in their homes or the fact that settlers can walk down some streets and Palestinians can't? There is a whole range of settler activity what is 'unfair', surely you can see why clarifications are needed. It's 'unfair' to accuse posters of twisting when nobody even you knows what Sharon is talking about. Are you twisting by guessing what she means just like other posters did?

I don’t think you should hector a poster in this way, she is posting in good faith and has made many criticisms of Israel and its government, expressed support for a two state solution, and expressed compassion for Palestinians.

I have never seen a ‘pro-Israel’ poster on here state support for settlers in the West Bank, which I think was at least partly what she described as unfair. There may be those who support settlers but I have never read any here.

And you are twisting what she said in my opinion.