How can anyone be proud to be anti Zionist

This.

Just for the record I don’t believe in displacement of anyone, past, present or future, Israeli, Palestinian, whoever. I believe those who were displaced have the right to return and that those who are there now have the right to stay. I’d like to see this applied to everyone, although I recognise it’s hopelessly optimistic and the two interests irreconcilable.

desire to remove the Jewish population to allow this to bappen.
I think that is the crux of the disagreement.
Does arguing against the existence of Israel as it is in its current state mean the removal of the Jewish population?

And if they do mean that, when people say the removal of the Jewish population, do they mean extermination or displacement?

One could ask the same questions about extreme Israeli politicians, but I’d like to know what you think people who call themselves anti-zionists mean.

All land stolen in the last 20-30 years
I would extend it further back because the majority of people in Gaza are crammed in there because they were forced out in 1948. You also have the land taken since 1967.

Many people argue that the One State solution would be the effective end of the only Jewish state in the world because they would be so greatly outnumbered but the alternative, to carry on as it is, is much worse.

There is also the question of revenge. If I were an Israeli Jew I’d be scared of a unified state for sure but people often cite the 2 million Muslims who managed to stay peacefully in the new Israel so there is that hope I guess. The balance would be totally flipped if the Palestinians were allowed back to their rightful lands. It really is a problem that has no just solution.

I completely agree with you regarding the fact that Israelis born and bred in Israel are not responsible for the actions of the soldiers in 1948 who took part in massacres. No one is responsible for the actions of their ancestors or the actions of people who share the same religion or ethnicity as them. The Irish were persecuted by the British on and off for 800 years and I am happily with an English man for two decades and my child has English, Welsh and Irish ancestors.

However, the problem is that the killing never stopped, the land grabs never stopped. Every year there are more houses demolished in the West Bank and Israel expands it’s territory over and over again. If you know your governments policy is to bring in people from abroad and let them violently steal houses and territory from another group - if you vote for that government knowing their policies you are somewhat responsible. If you live in a house that your ancestors stole by force and you continue to live in it knowing that, you are somewhat responsible. I was listening to an interview with an IDF soldier who said he never shot anyone or took part in proper violence but he maintains he and all other IDF soldiers are somewhat complicit by the nature of the orders they carry out. In his case he was tasked with raiding random people’s houses, waking them up at all hours and terrorising them at gun point each night to make the IDF’s presence known, so they were always on edge because they never knew when it would happen. You can be directly and indirectly responsible for crimes!

Personally I believe the only real solution is to have one state, a united state of Israel and Palestine, with equal representation at government level and all religion removed from government policy. All land stolen in the last 20-30 years returned or the people compensated and anyone with dual citizenship involved in violence having their citizenship revoked. Remove religion from all schools and ban segregation in education. When people attend the same schools, enjoy the same rights and freedoms, live in the same streets and shop in the same shops dialogue happens and people start to see that at the end of the day we are all the same. I don’t object to jewish, christian or muslim people living in the area, I object to people not paying for their properties, committing violent acts or treating others differently based on religion or ethnicity.

Agree that everyone is there now so, to put it frankly, people are going to have to find a peaceful political solution. The current horror didn't need to happen - Netanyahu supported Hamas and sowed division to suit his political interests. He is a truly evil man. The terrorists are also evil and want to keep the conflict going for their own selfish reasons. They don't want peace for their own people.

That's why I wish people would focus on the real villains, the people stoking conflict, rather than 'Zionism' which handily takes the focus away.

Well, I am not anti-Zionist, and have no religion, but there are Jews who are anti-Zionist on theological grounds who believe that it is wrong to found a Jewish state before the coming of the messiah. It's a pretty orthodox view but was more widespread around the time Zionism was emerging. By 'valid' I mean not anti-semitic - so by this definition this view would count.

But arguing about the existence of Israel is kind of moot because it does exist, and whatever the wrongs of its founding, this is not the fault of every Jew who lives there now

I agree. Lots of countries have been founded in ways that are unjust. What’s done cannot be undone. The difference in the case of Israel is that it’s so recent and the people who have suffered from its inception are still very much alive and still feeling the effects.

Personally, as a 'zionism ambivalent' Jew, shall we say, I'd say there are massive problems with the way Israel is governed, that Netanyahu is a war criminal and his government has committed genocide.

But arguing about the existence of Israel is kind of moot because it does exist, and whatever the wrongs of its founding, this is not the fault of every Jew who lives there now and replacing a disaster for Palestinians (which I reluctantly have to agree Israel has been), with a disaster for Israeli Jews and the diaspora ( eg somehow disestablishing Israel) is not an answer to anything. The best we will ever be able to do is a compromise and one that involves giving the Palestinian people a stake in Israel too.

In many ways, Israel is a miracle - a dynamic, cultured, innovative country conjoured out of the desert BUT, I have to wonder how much of that is on the back of cheap Palestinian labour. Some governors of Israel believed you have to strike and strike and strike at the Palestinian people until they give up and go somewhere else, and not only is that unlikely it is of course utterly inhumane. The best solution to my mind is to create a state where the Palestinians have better lives and can't be drawn as easily into hate and revenge, but Hamas and Netanyahu between them have made that an impossibility, I fear.

Does this make me a Zionist? An anti Zionist? As I say I'm not sure either side would have me.

What are valid anti-Zionist arguments in your opinion?

Of course, there are some 'Zionists' who do want to wipe out the Arabs, but they are minority extremists. Everywhere has its psychopaths and racists.

Well, it depends on the understanding of Zionism and what the motivation is. I believe there are valid anti-Zionist arguments, but I think the majority who say they are anti-Zionist are not aware of the history, and think that Zionism necessarily means wiping out the Arabs, which really isn't correct. If it did mean that, of course that would be wrong.

Why is it an odd response? The last two years have seen many anti-zionists accused of being anti-semitic so it’s a valid question: how does one express anti-zionism without being anti-semitic? Is it possible? Are the two the same?

You raised the British example, I just responded.

As noted in the article above, there are Zionists who were and some who still are eugenicists, racists, and generally horrible people, so I guess both sides are fucked and can't be proud (being proud either way seems odd to me).

Just because someone agrees with a horrible person on a specific point doesn't make them horrible solely by association. If it did, then there are a lot of things from abortion to the existence of nation-states at all that are all fucked to have a strong opinion on.

And yeah, it’s all just a massive coincidence that the one country anti Zionists think shouldn’t exist is the world’s one majority Jewish state

Do you think it's a massive coincidence that Zionists are only focused on the state of Israel existing where it does? That they dismissed other locations that were suggested and openly let other Jewish people die to fulfil this specific ideal?

Zionism and Anti-Zionism are always only going to be about the Jewish state of Israel being in that area because that's what Zionism is, taking the name from that very contested hill in Jerusalem. The Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Russia doesn't fall under any Zionist debate and few care one way or the other about its existence other than the Jewish people there who've fought not to be merged with others.

And for those on the left who like to use the ‘anti colonialism’ argument against Israel, I’m waiting with bated breath for them to argue that Australia or New Zealand shouldn’t exist.

I can't speak of Australia or New Zealand; but I know people have been discussing that the US and Canada should be dismantled and shouldn't exist for decades. I find the argument relies on dismantling current corrupt power structures and giving the areas back to particular indigenous nations, and the latter tends to be where the argument falls apart.

There are also other countries around the world that people have argued shouldn't or don't really exist and a lot of contested territory. Israel isn't alone in that, not even alone in the major fucking up in the withdraw by colonial powers playing a role in modern issues.

I am bringing Zionism back to its basic meaning which is the belief in the existence of the state of Israel.

The basic meaning needs to include the existence of the state of Israel in that specific area. Since before the first before the First Zionist Congress, that was an essential component, along with developing a Jewish national consciousness. Even that is getting basic to the point of distortion, but at least it's recognising why it's contested even by those who are not against the existence of a majority Jewish state.

@singmoon I did think twice before writing that I thought the post was anti-semitic, I'm sure you personally are not anti-semitic, I just really believe the statement is wrong and often made out of ignorance

True, but Britons haven't been horrifically persecuted for 2000 years and almost wiped out by a genocide during WWII, so the sensitivities are different.

Well I am Irish, so I do have some problems with exactly what the definition of British territory is, and what exactly constitutes the British state. That doesn't mean I'm anti British though.

Zionism emerged in the context of other 19th-century nationalist movements, and differences in Jewish theological thought across different groups. With increasing persecution of Eastern European and Russian Jews in the late 19th century the belief emerged that a place of refuge was needed. There are undoubtedly problems with nationalism - the way it alienates minorities being one, but these problems are pretty universal across nation states.

Things have obviously gone very wrong - the persecution and oppression of Arabs by the Israeli government has done nothing for Arabs (obviously) and nothing to make Jewish people safer either. But Zionism itself was not conceived of as being 'genocidal' and to say so given what Jews have been through is pretty offensive.

Yeah I think it's strange that people seem unaware of what is happening on their doorstep. I know people who refuse to call NI Northern Ireland and always refer to it as the North of Ireland. To use the terminology used around Israel they deny it's very existence. The right of NI to exist is questioned everyday, it's an accepted political viewpoint, the president of Ireland believes in a united Ireland so again to use the same terminology she believes that NI doesn't have the right to exist.

For some reason some people have a stronger reaction to people questioning whether a country 1000s of miles away has the right to exist in it's current form than they do with people questioning whether a part of the UK where they actually live has a right to exist in its current form, in fact it would seem that some aren't even aware that that happens.

The other day an Israeli posted the same thing. And it got deleted. I never understood why such a thing would be deleted if it was the truth. Such is our world.

Sorry but that is like saying being Jewish means you believe in one God.
You’ve dumbed it down so much, it has lost all context and meaning.

I find this an odd response to my statement. If I said something like 'there is anti-black racism in the UK' I don't think you would respond by saying 'but how do you know which white people are racist and which aren't?' I mean, you don't always

It’s because we all know that if things get too bad in the diaspora there’s one place in the world we can go where we won’t feel unwelcome

Israel is the least safe place to be a Jew right now.

OP’s point on Oct 7th being the worst terror attack per capita ever in history was spot on. And that’s not the only attack! Terror attacks happen almost daily in Israel and have done for generations.

Recent polls show that 25% of Israelis want to leave the country because they don’t feel safe. Especially amongst young Israelis who could be called up for reserve IDF duty.

I say we aren’t welcome because we are being murdered by terrorists just for being Jewish at a rate only exceeded by the Holocaust.

Since the Oct 7th massacre, there has been record emigration of Israelis leaving Israel.