How can anyone be proud to be anti Zionist

Eire! I really thought the days when
English people called us Eire were dead and gone.

I wonder what Pakistan would have done if several surrounding countries had waged war on it at it's inception, or constantly attacked it with insurgents and suicide bombers. Or what Eire would have done for that matter. If people who resented the existence of the country and targeted Pakistani or Irish olympic teams or citizens abroad because their country existed.

Do Pakistan or Eire have bomb shelters in every home, or an iron dome missile defence system. I'm not sure your explanation explains all.

I wonder what Pakistan would have done if several surrounding countries had waged war on it at it's inception, or constantly attacked it with insurgents and suicide bombers. Or what Eire would have done for that matter. If people who resented the existence of the country and targeted Pakistani or Irish olympic teams or citizens abroad because their country existed.

Do Pakistan or Eire have bomb shelters in every home, or an iron dome missile defence system. I'm not sure your explanation explains all.

No one would be commenting on 1948 if the violence, displacement and land grabs had ended there. We would say that it was horrible but it is in the past and most of those involved are no longer alive. Atrocities have happened lots of places and people move on, not because they accept it or because they like people of that religious or ethnic group, but because it has already happened and the perpetrators are long dead.

The reason people refer to it and the reason people are highlighting Israel’s actions in 1948 rather than Pakistan’s in 1947 is that throughout Israel’s existence the land grabs have continued, the displacement, the murder, violence and segregation! Jewish people are actively encouraged to move to the West Bank and settle in houses owned by Palestinians and have murdered Palestinians and burned down their homes as IOF (it is an occupation force there) soldiers look on. In Israel a Jewish American or Ukrainian that moves to Israel has higher status than a Muslim or Christian that has been born there. It is an unequal society.

In Ireland and the rest of the world we rarely talk about the atrocities committed by British soldiers and the Black and Tans against the Irish because it is in the past and no longer happens, you can’t blame the living for the actions of their ancestors. If they had continued to happen we would shouting it from the rooftops and highlighting how long it had been going on. If Israel wants people to stop criticising it there is a simple answer - stop committing war crimes, stop stealing land and get your troops out of other countries territories!

Nobody is calling for Pakistan or Bangladesh to be reabsorbed into India or for displaced Sikhs to have a right of return as far as I know, maybe it's under reported.

Are you saying that’s different or the same?

And there were lots of massacres and bloodshed in the partition so surely that’s not an aspirational thing? I might be misunderstanding your argument!

Pakistan was created for refugees from India.

So are you saying this makes it okay to do?

I was replying to a specific question, not endorsing this

millions were displaced/murdered/died during partition

It was created in a way that made 800,000+ people displaced from their homes, thousands murdered. You can’t help one group by hurting another!

It was created in a way that made 800,000+ people displaced from their homes, thousands murdered. You can’t help one group by hurting another!

The circumstances around the creation of Pakistan are very different from those of the creation of Israel.

Or apparently Pakistan, partitioned at a similar time, for similar reasons, with millions displaced and dead and a rather massive diaspora who don't have their own refugee agency.

Could you elaborate on ‘Israel as currently constituted cannot continue’?

What do you want to happen and who do you propose makes it stop?

I find the responses to this thread fascinating.

Would we even be having a debate on whether a Muslim state should exist?

Should the 50+ majority Muslim States be allowed to exist?

What about Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Iraq?

All previously part of the Ottoman Empire. All involved population shifts and displacement in their creation as nation States.

No issues with those countries?

”Anti-Zionism” is a loose term referring to criticism of the current policies of the Israeli state, and/or moral, ethical, or religious criticism of the idea of a Jewish nation-state.

Why can't you criticise the policies of the Israeli state ?

Could you elaborate on ‘Israel as currently constituted cannot continue’?

What do you want to happen and who do you propose makes it stop?

I find the responses to this thread fascinating.

Would we even be having a debate on whether a Muslim state should exist?

Should the 50+ majority Muslim States be allowed to exist?

What about Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Iraq?

All previously part of the Ottoman Empire. All involved population shifts and displacement in their creation as nation States.

No issues with those countries?

Something like the Good Friday Agreement is needed, but that took Ireland, the UK, the US and the EU to make happen. I don't see Israel or Hamas in that zone yet. Israel as currently constituted cannot continue, but the path to a peaceful solution will be long and painful.

I completely agree with you regarding the fact that Israelis born and bred in Israel are not responsible for the actions of the soldiers in 1948 who took part in massacres. No one is responsible for the actions of their ancestors or the actions of people who share the same religion or ethnicity as them. The Irish were persecuted by the British on and off for 800 years and I am happily with an English man for two decades and my child has English, Welsh and Irish ancestors.

However, the problem is that the killing never stopped, the land grabs never stopped. Every year there are more houses demolished in the West Bank and Israel expands it’s territory over and over again. If you know your governments policy is to bring in people from abroad and let them violently steal houses and territory from another group - if you vote for that government knowing their policies you are somewhat responsible. If you live in a house that your ancestors stole by force and you continue to live in it knowing that, you are somewhat responsible. I was listening to an interview with an IDF soldier who said he never shot anyone or took part in proper violence but he maintains he and all other IDF soldiers are somewhat complicit by the nature of the orders they carry out. In his case he was tasked with raiding random people’s houses, waking them up at all hours and terrorising them at gun point each night to make the IDF’s presence known, so they were always on edge because they never knew when it would happen. You can be directly and indirectly responsible for crimes!

Personally I believe the only real solution is to have one state, a united state of Israel and Palestine, with equal representation at government level and all religion removed from government policy. All land stolen in the last 20-30 years returned or the people compensated and anyone with dual citizenship involved in violence having their citizenship revoked. Remove religion from all schools and ban segregation in education. When people attend the same schools, enjoy the same rights and freedoms, live in the same streets and shop in the same shops dialogue happens and people start to see that at the end of the day we are all the same. I don’t object to jewish, christian or muslim people living in the area, I object to people not paying for their properties, committing violent acts or treating others differently based on religion or ethnicity.