How can anyone be proud to be anti Zionist

I’m confused as to what the problem with the word Eire is ?

We’ve always used it and it’s used by the Government when anything’s written in Irish.

Exactly. Vegans being a case in point (are we allowed to joke here ?)

Speaking of jokes, and totally un-PC 😀

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01777fr

Directly after the war these countries did not welcome Jewish refugees themselves. @ScrollingLeaves

Trying to deter Jews from entering the UK started long before then. The 1905 Aliens act was introduced primarily to stem the flow of Eastern European Jews into the UK. To his credit Churchill was vehemently against the act and left the Tory party as a result. After WW1 and the defeat of the Ottomans, The British mandate encouraged migration of Jews into what was then Palestine. That soon gave rise to antagonism and violence between the incomers and the Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Muslims who had lived there for centuries... the rest, as they say is history.

I think those non-Jews in Britain and the US just after the war who advocated for Zionism and Jewish refugees to be settled in the land that was called Palestine, have nothing to be proud about. It was a hypocritical stance.

Directly after the war these countries did not welcome Jewish refugees themselves. Sending them to Palestine was a way of deflecting from their own anti-semitism. Instead, they salved their consciences by passing the burden to another people, and stealing their land in the process to create the State of Israel. What’s more they would have known it would also be very problematic for the Jewish people too.

Neither Israelis or Palestinians will be going anywhere now though. Pray that one day that either a single, or two state solution can be found for both Palestinians and Israelis.

Interesting. The powerful get heard. Silence can speak volumes when you have power. It’s a choice. Voicelessness and silence are different. Silence can be borne from fear of the powerful which when the balance is tipped leads to voicelessness where there is no agency.

I am free to look them up, you’re right.

10% of the Palestinian population in 1919 was Jewish.

Although it’s convenient for you sweep the past under the carpet, can I ask you if you would expect any other population to accept such a massive increase in the immigrant population without their consent and without protest?

@SameOldHill you are welcome to look up the earlier statistics yourself. No spin at all. I am quoting present day reality. Let's get back to the OP shall we?

And therein lies the spin.

Yes, Jews have always lived there, but not in the same numbers.

Please tell me the population percentages for the same groups you’ve mentioned, but in 1919, the year before the first Arab riot against increased Jewish immigration.

It wasn't meant to be addressed just to you. Apologies. I agree with the thread title and the OP.

Why is this meant for me in particular? My reply was to thank ScholesPanda. I think their 3 scenarios explain the ambiguities of the term anti Zionist very well.

The people who were living on the land in 1948 included Muslims, Jews, Christians and Druze. The current population includes the same denominations of which 73% is Jewish, 18% Muslim (excluding those in Gaza and the West Bank) 1.9% Christian 1.6% Druze and 4.8% unclassified. All denominations are free to vote in elections and sit in the Knesset (Israel's Parliament). Jews and Muslims worked alongside each other in harmony, at least until 7 October.

To take away the only legitimate country that is predominantly ethnically Jewish is unthinkable for most Jews and, indeed, for many non Jews. To equate all Jewish people with disagreeing to a homeland for Palestinians is just plain wrong.

There are as many Palestinians (probably more aka Hamas) and other Arab nationalities (e.g. Iran) who wish to rid the whole of Israel of its Jews. That is a fact. Yesterday there was a report that teachers in schools in one American state had sent out maps where the whole of Israel had been renamed Palestine.

Yes, thank you. I’ve been struggling to find any clarity on how Zionism can be defined. This really does help.
I don’t see how anyone can be proud whatever the view.

I think its possible to be a Zionist and also to believe Palestinians have just as much rights as Israelis to a homeland in that area... I dont see Zionism as being mutually exclusive to support for a Palestinian state. I believe in both.

@dairydebris this is roughly where I would land too. I don't know what I would call my beliefs but I would believe that Jewish people should be able to settle in Israel as their homeland but not expand borders or control Palestinians rights.

You explained this so well, thank you.

I think there's quite a bit of ambiguity in what is meant by anti-zionist. You could want to see Israel destroyed as a state, and the Jewish population subjugated, killed or repatriated. That's probably what Hamas and Iran want, and it would have very little support in the UK.

Alternatively, you could mean 'everyone in historical Palestine should live in one state with full citizenship and voting rights, regardless of ethnicity or religion'. This is also anti-zionist as it would mean Israel wasn't primarily a Jewish state anymore. However, you'd probably find plenty of British people who supported this.

A third view is that you support a two-state solution, one country for Israelis and one for Palestinians. You oppose Israeli expansion into the West Bank and Gaza. However, this could also be seen as anti-zionist as some Zionists believe the whole area needs to become a Jewish homeland and that expansion is necessary. Support for a two state solution is very mainstream in the UK.

Scenario 3 is quite different from scenario 1, I'm sure you'll agree.

I thought Zionism was the belief that the Jewish people have a right to a homeland of their own- but specifically in the place where it is right now- Zion.
For me, antizionism doesn't have to be antisemitic because there are a very few niche reasons why some people believe they shouldn't be there at all, for example the ultra orthodox.
But, its most often coupled with beliefs that definitely betray antisemitism, the denial of Jewish history in the region, saying they have no right to be there, comparing the oppression of Palestinians to the Holocaust etc.
I think its possible to be a Zionist and also to believe Palestinians have just as much rights as Israelis to a homeland in that area... I dont see Zionism as being mutually exclusive to support for a Palestinian state. I believe in both.
As always the difficult bit is Where and How.

Looks like all is not well in the country

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly580gkd9ro

I wonder how many English conscripts in WW2 could have got away with "We are doing our bit for the war. We're praying" ?

Israel can be a Jewish majority country like other countries are majority Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc.

The problem though is that Israel won’t be a Jewish majority state if the Palestinians are treated fairly in their own land, given the rights to live where their grandparents lived, given equal space, access and right to vote.

It will be the end of the only Jewish state in the world. And so, the existence of a state for Jews (a good thing) relies on the subjugation of the native population (bad thing).

Your stance will always depend on whether you think the former is worth the latter.

It is only antisemitic if the person isn’t also anti-theocracy and anti-ethnonationalism.

A Jewish state is like any other state that is ruled by a religious leader rather than a secular one. Iran is a theocracy. The Vatican is a theocracy. History has had many theocracies. I’m not for theocracies, I think we should all have freedom of religion and not be denied citizenship or rights based on our religion,

There are also elements of ethno-nationalism in a Jewish state where one ethnicity is superior to another. We see that in white nationalist movements for example. I’m against ethnonationalism as well. I don’t think that a state that practices apartheid on the basis of ethnicity is something to applaud.

A state that bases its laws on ethnicity and/or religion rather than equality and liberty for all is not a good state regardless of the ethnicity or religion being promoted as the state religion or the preferred ethnicity. Israel is one such state. As is Iran and the Vatican.

The solution is reform of these states, not their erasure. Israel can be a Jewish majority country like other countries are majority Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. That is what Israel should be, but isn’t. The founding principles require the displacement and subjugation of anyone not Jewish as either a second class citizen or a noncitizen subhuman. The ICJ has ruled Israel is an apartheid state, so this isn’t my opinion this is the ruling of the top legal experts in the world that anyone not Jewish in Israel has limited rights, if any, and that it is not a functioning democracy with the principle of equal rights for all.

If you don't believe that the Jewish people should have a state of their own, that in itself is anti Semitic, not just ant iZionist, in my opinion. Most Jewish people do relate to the state of Israel even if they disagree with the Israeli government, just as many Brits disagree with our government actions, etc.

It depends whom you mean by anti Zionists. Those people you refer to may not all have the same views. There is confusion around the meaning.

Do you consider anyone who -

thinks those in the Israeli government who refer to ‘Judaea and Sumaria’, and who say
the land from the river to the sea belongs to Jews because God promised it to them,
are wrong, and guilty of all sorts of abuses towards Palestinians even before Oct 7 -

to be an anti-Zionist, and comparable to Hitler?

Anyone ?

Then you continue to displace people and rob their houses and lands, generation after generation, and you sob “why do they keep attacking me. Ever think the issue might be the stealing, displacement and murder thing that is creating terrorists?

Who is "you"? Who on this thread has displaced anyone?

And vicims of mass terror attacks have every right to "sob". What a disgusting comment.

It really is astonishing how the aggressors have painted themselves as the victims isn’t it? It’s the ultimate spin. I was brought up believing that Palestinians were terrorists. It’s incredible, the power of propaganda.