Abuse by Israeli soldiers

It’s so upsetting, depressing as well really 😔Shame on them.

It’s revolting, how have they no shame, what sort of people are those cheering and protesting for them, depraved

Nice

WATCH: Israeli soldiers accused of rape are seeking public sympathy

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1Dbx7TwMXV/

Israeli soldiers who admitted to raping a Palestinian detainee at the Sde Teiman detention camp on July 2024 were met with applause as they appeared in court.

The scene, amplified by far-right ministers calling them “heroes,” has drawn international condemnation.

I think you should read the post above yours.

Jewish people are quite clearly unique in their history, persecution, scapegoating, the holocaust, reestablishing their ancestral homeland, being surrounded by hostile neighbours who wish to annihilate them, and being under constant terrorist attack.

I thought that was obvious.

I wanted to add something more: I don’t think it’s helpful (especially for outsiders) to characterise the Jewish people or Israel as unique. Every people, ethnic group, religious group or nation is unique, and I think that one of the biggest problems with the conversation about Israel is the attempts on both extremes of the political spectrum to present this particular war or country or people as unique rather than looking at the many features and problems shared with other conflicts.

But at the same time, not enough people, especially those writing in English, take into account that the culture, including political culture, in Israel, isn’t some Western transplant. We have a different culture, in which, among other things, intense political debate is expressed out loud and not swept under the surface by pretensions of politeness - but this doesn’t negate very high levels of social solidarity that cross political lines.

Unique how? Like the time they assassinated their own PM? Just giving that example to show there has always been political infighting, like there is in almost EVERY other group.

You mentioned above you did your own research - i think it's best to continue that on the history of Israeli politics.

The Jewish people are fairly unique in the context I described. How is it a weird comment? I don’t expect they all think the same and I didn’t say they should.

The political infighting is very destructive though,

"it baffles me as an outsider that even Israelis/the Jewish people don’t seem to be on the same side"

This is a weird comment. Do you expect any other group/population to all think the same?

"From the comments section, Ronen Berg is not very respected by all of Israel. I see he used to write for Haaretz." - People who write talkbacks on news websites are hardly representative of the whole population. Like in any other country, Israeli political opinion is hugely diverse. But Ronen Bergman is by any standard a serious, experienced investigative journalist who has written for newspapers of the highest calibre and won multiple prizes for his journalism.

"How is he so adamant that the leaked video was not doctored do you think?" - Because there is no evidence for that, and it has been admitted as evidence in a court trial.

"Wasn’t there medical evidence refuting the rape claim though or has that been debunked?" Read the article I linked. Both the injuries and the polygraph test results (which were confirmed by a second examiner) point to this. While the details in the article are very graphic, the journalist refrains for going into the exact reason why the specific rape charge was dropped in favour of the two aggravated assault charges, which actually carry a heavier penalty than the rape charge would have.

"I must admit I’m always sceptical about attempts to portray Israel in a bad light since Oct 7th." - There are plenty of those. But a lot of shit stuff also happens during wars. Frankly I think that these ridiculous attempts of ministers to deflect attention and whitewash this horrific abuse portray Israel in a far worse light than a military justice system actually taking action against those involved. And don't forget: this really is a deflection. This case was in the news and the soldiers were arrested before the video was linked - and it would likely have been made public anyway during the trial.

Wasn’t there medical evidence refuting the rape claim though or has that been debunked?

I’ll listen to the Podcasts.

I must admit I’m always sceptical about attempts to portray Israel in a bad light since Oct 7th.

I’m not Israeli or Jewish and it doesn’t affect me at all but having done some research into the background of this conflict, the treatment of the Jewish people throughout history, and the surge of antisemitism, anti Zionism and delegitimisation of Israel since Oct 7th which seems to have been the intended consequence, it baffles me as an outsider that even Israelis/the Jewish people don’t seem to be on the same side.

I don’t know the answer (not that you asked me).

For me the video is irrelevant compared to the injuries inflicted on the detainee, and where they were inflicted. The detainee arrived in the hospital injured in the way he was well before the video was leaked.

From the comments section, Ronen Berg is not very respected by all of Israel. I see he used to write for Haaretz.

How is he so adamant that the leaked video was not doctored do you think?

Thank you very much. Having used Google translate to read through this article bit by bit, I can certainly see what you mean that nothing in English is as detailed.

In fact what you can find to read about this Sde Temain abuse and aftermath in English does not even approach this (Hebrew) Ynet level of factual detail, or nuance in interpreting it.

To add to my previous reply, here is an in depth refutation of the deep state conspiracy and of government minister “blood libel” claims by a respected Israeli journalist, based on the established facts. I don’t know how well it will auto translate or how comprehensible all the political references will be to an outsider, but you can try.

www.ynet.co.il/news/article/rkd6g5jkwx?utm_source=ynet.app.ios&utm_term=rkd6g5jkwx&utm_campaign=general_share&utm_medium=social&utm_content=Header

Thank you for explaining why the conspiracy/deep fake theories about the Sde Temain abuse, or about Oct 7, referred to by the pp as having been in the Jerusalem post, do not make sense or reflect what normal Israelis think @israelilefty .

Thanks too for suggesting the podcast Unholy as a source for information.

I don't know what sources you follow, but an op-ed by a right wing American-Israeli activist in the Jerusalem Post (itself not a particularly high quality newspaper) who is pushing a deep state conspiracy is not a reliable source of news.

I extensively read and follow mainstream Israeli news sources in Hebrew, and I have heard no credible doubt in the veracity of the video or whether the individual was in Sde Teiman (in any case, the soldiers were arrested before the video was even released). I have not seen the video and do not intend to do so, but the very serious injuries he suffered which are documented in medical records are consistent with the allegations. More specific details of these reported in the Israeli media, which I am not going to repeat here.

And no: no Israelis (well at least no sane ones) are saying that Oct 7 was "let happen". This is also even more absurd than the deep state allegations. It is inconsistent with everything we know about Oct 7, including Sinwar's planning (even if we supposed somehow it was known about - the plan focused on kidnapping civilians from kibbutzim).

Please, if you want to know what Israelis are thinking, replace your "sources" with some actual news that's connected to what real Israelis are experiencing and thinking, not some tiny fringe of right-wing conspiracy theorists in the West Bank, who are trying to somehow discredit the video and the entire justice system in a transparent attempt to deflect attention from the actual incident itself.

English sources do tend to be much less well informed than Hebrew ones and/or to have a very strong agenda. For those looking for something that reasonably accurately gives insight into the mainstream Israeli news, I have often recommended on here the podcast Unholy, which is co-presented by Yonit Levy, an anchor of Israel's most watched, mainstream, news broadcast (channel 12) and has knowledgeable guests. Friday's episode talked, among other things, about the Sde Teiman affair.

From sources I follow I thought the gang rape allegation was false and the video was doctored as the time stamps showed different days and apparently on one of them the alleged victim was not even in Sde Tieman?

Why the need to doctor footage?

The video does not show evidence of a gang rape from what I can see? There was a medical report saying there was no evidence of rape?

It was then discovered the MAG approved the leak of the doctored footage and tried to cover up the leak?

What evidence that the rape allegation was true was published in Israeli media?

There seems to be some suspicion that this has been a ‘deep state’ conspiracy. I have read similar suspicions from Israelis about Oct 7th itself being let happen, expecting only military hostages to be taken, to topple Netanyahu’s government which is too dispicable for words if true?

What are your thoughts on this as an Israeli?

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-872854

Why use the word abuse? The prisoners bowell was ruptured. It was gang rape. Certainly not the only incident, just one for which footage was leaked.

And the Israeli government leaders calling it 'blood libel' - does that just mean inconvenient truth now. The weaponisation of antisemitism to excuse crimes against humanity needs to be called out by everyone.

There is no doubt from the injuries that the assault included anal penetration - this is widely reported and not in question. I have no inside information on the case other than what is reported, but my best guess is that the charge of rape was dropped for technical reasons; since this was reportedly done by just one of them, I'm guessing that the prosecution might not have enough evidence regarding which of them that charge should be filed against in order to achieve a conviction.

Yes, far right politicians plus the lawyers of the 5 soldiers are trying as much as possible to spin this against the military justice system by claiming that the charges are trumped up and the video is false. However, that this is spin is abundantly obvious and it's not how mainstream news sources in Israel are reporting this incident.

Lots of personal attacks there to my mind.

Sorry @israelilefty I missed this before.

I realised that but think that charge of aggravated assault purposely misses out the charge of ‘rape’; and I was also thinking of Katz saying the charge against them is ‘blood libel’ as though it were false; and thinking of how they and others are calling for their names to be cleared on the grounds their trial can’t be fair.

The covered up leak may be wrong but is also being found very useful by the wrong doers.

Please tell me where I have exaggerated or spun things ?
@stomachamelon
my only motivation on this site is to counter the constant dehumanisation of Palestinians that I have seen on here, the minimising of the fact that 67,000 people have been killed in Gaza and to counter some very pro Israeli viewpoints. I think the Israeli government needs to be held to account for its actions both since October 7th and previously. It is a view shared by many Jews and some Israelis

@Everexpandingi am not deflecting criticism more wondering why someone who comes across as an intelligent person needs to exaggerate and spin things so extremely if you honestly think the facts (as they stand) speak for themselves?

It doesn’t show any understanding of what is actually happening and how it’s perceived. Which makes me question your motivation.