Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

What is a well implemented two state solution. A two state solution means total autonomy for the Palestinians without any interference by their Israeli neighbours. Would they be allowed an airport. An army. A navy. Or would it just be an even bigger open air prison like Gaza. I'm not sure who is more of an idealist. You or me.

There is proof, literally, that Hamas was funded by Israel in order to divide the Palestinians. Literally undeniable proof. If you don't believe me I will post it but it is so established as a fact, I'd rather not bother having to dig it up.

@JadeHare ,

I can see that it has elements of being an apartheid state, but it is nothing like South Africa.

I can see people thinking of Gaza and the West Bank as homeland analogies, but It is not based on race, as Arabs in Israel proper (over 1 million of them) have the same rights as Jews in law.

Neither.

Its one organisation, Adalah, that makes that claim and it highly contested. You may agree with them but dont come here making out its widely accepted by reputable organisations. Israel is not perfect, discrimination exists, as it does everywhere. Despite the persistence and regilarity of Palestinian terrorism Israel affords equal rights to Palestinians, there are Arabs & Palestinians in the Knesset etc. It is not by any definition an apartheid state.

It’s not an apartheid state. Are you joking or incredibly naive?

Human rights organizations document more than 65 Israeli laws that directly or indirectly discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel

I strongly recommend reading Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib for a Palestinian perspective. What a betrayal of the Palestinian people to try & pretend they are incapable of knowing the difference between good and evil and that terrorism against Israel is Israel's fault.

@Squeezingwildoranges ,

The issue you don’t seem to see is that without a Jewish majority (including secular) and a Jewish majority government, what is to stop Israel becoming a full on Muslim state and then eliminating the Jews?

The Weimar Republic had a constitution that protected all religious groups equally. And that didn’t end well.

Surely you can see that this is a legitimate concern?

A well implemented two state solution would share the land and resources and enable both Jews and Palestinians to live in freedom.

No, Hamas is the product of an evil, corrupt ideology. To blame Israel for Hamas is a disgrace.

Hamas is a symptom of a diseased apartheid country. Nothing more. You think a young Palestinian who was given the opportunity to become a policeman with a good salary and equal rights would not prefer that to what he is going through now. What is your solution. Never ending violence.

I have no idea what world you live in. What possible evidence is there that the Palestinians would accept 'a formally Jewish country' and much more importantly who would enforce the protection of what would be a Jewish minority? You think the people that ran & grew up with institutionalised Pay for Slay would suddenly decide to stop slaying? Israel already affords equal rights to minorities and protects their religion. It is not an apartheid state. Hamas on the other hand does not.

Legally, the United Kingdom is a Protestant Christian country because it's constitution is not codified and where the apparatus of the state is officially bound to the Protestant Church. There are 43 countries globally that feature an official state religion codified directly into their constitution or foundational laws. Israel is one of them. I'm not saying change that. Keep the constitution and introduce laws that protect the Jewish population. Even bring it in that as a citizen of Israel, your duty is to protect the Jewish population, no matter what your background. The safe homeland for Jews could be an unamendable constitutional mandate. If the UK went to war and introduced the draft, a young Pakistani Muslim would not be exempt from the draft and so they shouldn't be. Same could be done in Israel. A formally Jewish country that isn't an apartheid state.

Jews are an ethnicity. If you can't see that it doesn't change the fact.

It has an established church, known the church of England (and Church of Scotland which is a different strand of Protestant) which established over 450 years ago. In that time there was vast societal change to the point that now the majority of people do not go to Protestant churches. Religious persecution was previously sanctioned and is now illegal. What the hell has this to do with Israel?

I have a very close Jewish friend who, like you would call themselves secular. We are both British and ethnically I see no difference between us whatsoever. However, I have met an Iraqi Jew (no longer lives in Iraq) and we are very different ethnically speaking.

@Squeezingwildoranges ,

‘I don't agree. Judaism is a religion first. The ethnicity is simply based on a belief that they are all descended from the twelve tribes. I don't see the cultural ties between a European and Middle Eastern Jewish person, prior to the formation of Israel. They ate different food, different music, dressed differently and didn't even speak the same language unless they had learnt modern Hebrew who very few people had.’

I am afraid that is overly simplistic.

Certainly within Ashkenazi Jews, there is a genetic element. Most of us are vulnerable to the same genetic disorders.

But, also, even if an ethnicity stems from religion originally, it becomes a culture too. The Seder supper on Fridays, the ritual foods etc etc. Yes, there is overlap in that secular Jews like me have spent time with more religious Jews and shared meals etc, but it is based on a lot more than religion in the modern world.

One of my best friends at school was from Egyptian Jewish stock (Sephardi). Neither of us were very religious (in my case, not at all) but we still had a lot in common.

(To be fair I also find I have quite a bit in common with moderate Muslims , but it is not quite the same)

Is the UK officially defined and recognised as a country that is a Protestant Christian country?

Might be worth considering that a Jewish person may just have a better understanding than you of what it means to be Jewish.

We have 2 people commenting on this thread who have both shared that they are ethnically Jewish while not being particularly religious.

thats your opinion but my DNA test says otherwise. Our DNA is so incredibly closely related to the population of Isreal thousands of years ago. Incredible really that it can be traced back to that very specific area. The fact that most Jews can be identified visually is the clue that that they are an ethnic group and that is what is used to identify them. I honestly can believe you think Jewish persecution is based on whether not they read Hebrew and the Torah alone.

I don't agree. Judaism is a religion first. The ethnicity is simply based on a belief that they are all descended from the twelve tribes. I don't see the cultural ties between a European and Middle Eastern Jewish person, prior to the formation of Israel. They ate different food, different music, dressed differently and didn't even speak the same language unless they had learnt modern Hebrew who very few people had. The only cultural connection was the religion. I would agree now that they are much more culturally aligned, I'm talking about prior to 1948. Millions of people call themselves Christian but have never prayed a day in their lives. There are millions of Muslims who drink, even a lot who eat pork.

What does this even mean?

Can you honestly not understand how unmoored from reality this is?

Well then I guess the Palestinians are fucked because unless there is global extreme pressure on Israel to accept a two state solution based on the 67 borders, which I can't see happening, there is no Israeli government that will ever clear out the settlements, even if they could which I don't think they would be able to. I guess Palestinians are going to have to accept that they live under extreme apartheid and the Israelis are just going to have to accept that internationally their status as a pariah state is just going to get worse.

@Squeezingwildoranges ,

Freedom of religion is already protected under Jewish law. In fact , Jews are actually prohibited from prayer on Temple Mount due to its holiness to Moslems.

I think where we will disagree and the reason I favour a two state solution is that Israel needs a predominantly Jewish government (and I am talking ethnicity/culture rather than religion).

With the best will in the world and even a robust constitution, nothing else would guarantee to keep it safe for Jews. Laws/constitutions can easily change and it just risks becoming yet another Moslem state.

In an ideal world, with a two state solution, it could become like a mini eu with freedom of trade and movement.

Not the same though- Christianity is a religion - Isreal being a Jewish state is predominately around ethnicity and then religion. You don’t have to practise Judaism to be a Jew. I am ethnically a jew (and I look it) but I am Christian notionally by religion but I am not particularly religious. As David Baddiel said (I think - apologies if I get this wrong- I’m paraphrasing from memory ) - do you think Hitler cared if Jews were keeping kosher? The Jewish state is to protect ethnic Jews from persecution, not whether they go to synagogue.

Why would they lose the only Jewish state? It can still be a Jewish state even if the majority of the country are not Jewish, once again, just like the UK.