Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

I don't put any blame on "innocent Palestinians in the West Bank" cowering from the settlers. I have every sympathy for them and think the settlers are awful people who should be punished.

I don't understand your question, So where is the problem exactly?

Hamas attacked ordinary Israelis, such as young people at a music festival and mothers with young children.

Right so where is the problem in blaming violent invading Israeli civillians for being violent invaders? Why are you saying that their victims should accept some of the blame?

Not the civilians obviously. How about subsequent Israeli governments that from 2005 until Oct7 had murdered five times as many Palestinians in Gaza than Israelis who were murdered on Oct7. They called it mowing the grass.

I think when a country suffers a terrorist attack with widespread murders, kidnappings and in some cases sexual violence towards its people, the first response should just be sympathy really.

While it's true that the event "didn't happen in a vacuum" - no historical event does - there's something wrong when your first response is to blame that country for the atrocities committed on their mainly civilian victims.

Right. And the innocent Palestinians in the West Bank cowering from violent Israeli civilians who by international law should not even be there are not at all to blame for what is happening to them. The violent Israeli civillians are to blame, they are the violent murderous ones invading others territory and causing fear and pain. It isnt being part of the problem to accept that. The innocent Palestinians being invaded and terrorised are not to blame, just like the innocent Israelis who were invaded and terrorised were not to blame. So where is the problem exactly?

No I do not hold Israeli civilians in any way to blame for the massacre and rapes of October 7th. That would be victim blaming.

Yes, in common with many other countries.

It's funny because when António Guterres said that Oct 7 'didn't happen in a vacuum' people clamoured for his resignation, it was said that he was 'justifying' what happened, it was seen as outrageous. This was the same for every single person who said that the conflict in Gaza didn't start on Oct 7, they were labelled as terrorist supporters.

When Israeli civilians are beating 10 shades of shit out of innocent people on the daily in their homeland as they cower and beg and plead to be left alone suddenly we have to acknowledge that they are to blame for what Israeli civilians are doing to them every day or we are the problem?

Now though you are saying that Israelis have to accept their part in Oct 7, accept their portion of 'blame' for what happened that day? António Guterres was right and people were wrong to denounce him?

Under Israeli law Palestinian citizens have equal rights, but the structural inequities, particularly around land and resource allocation, make it difficult for them to fully realise them.

In a poll conducted by Gallup in August 2023 asking Israelis if they would support the creation of a separate Palestinian state only 25% of Israelis supported a two-state solution, while an overwhelming 65% actively opposed it.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/695582/peace-distant-prospect-israelis-palestinians.aspx

So if a two State solution is not acceptable to Israelis and a single State solution isn't, what is the solution? Expulsion and ethnic cleansing? Formal annexation of the entire West Bank and keeping them subjugated without any self determination or rights? What is the moral and humane answer if that is the democratic will of the people?

You stand by your post @DeterminedRat

That's part of the problem, people seeing things in a very one sided way and not acknowledging there is blame and violence on both sides in the historic conflict.

You were accusing them of propaganda for saying that Israel, the PA and Gaza are different entities, which they are.

Or that Palestinian citizens of Israel have equal rights, which they do in terms of them holding formal citizenship, which provides the right to vote in national elections, run for office, and access the civil court system.

A false accusation.

I stand by my post. Israelis and Israeli civillians at that are currently the ones rampaging around the place, creating fear, spreading violence. When it comes to Area A how do you think Palestinians would feel to see a car load of Israelis coming their way? Visceral fear is what I would guess. Just in the past week Israeli civillians(because that's exactly what settlers are, they aren't proscribed so the are just Israeli civillians) have attacked and abducted a British man who tried to help Palestinians, they've attacked foreign journalists, they've stolen someone's house with the family in it, they committed at least 70 attacks against Palestinians, they've killed a teenager.

Israeli civillians before we even get into the IDF, before we even get into the government have been terrorising Palestinians and anyone else who gets in their way. To turn that around and say that it is Israeli civillians who would too scared to go to area A, yeah I think it's laughable.

There are over 3million Palestinians in the West Bank, if they were the threat, if they really despised Jews as much as we are told they do then it wouldn't be them cowering on the ground being beaten, begging and pleading for the international community to help them. We are told that they love to be martyrs, they are raised and indoctrinated that way, yet they arent fighting, they are being beaten and being killed why is that? Why is it video after video of Palestinians retreating, Palestinians being beaten by Israelis, Palestinians running and hiding for their lives when they are have been brought up to be martyrs for their cause, when they love their children less than they hate Israelis? Why is it Israelis beating people, why is it Israelis terrorising people, why is it Israelis that are sending their children to terrorise people?

Something isn't adding up with the tales that we have been told. Over 3 million Palestinians with a hatred for Jews, a lust for martyrdom and yet there they are not fighting but running and cowering from the people who just want peace.

I think if you read the thread carefully again Twigs, you’ll find that @SharonEllis did it first.

No need to apologise…..

Palestinians, especially those in Gaza, are extremely dangerous to Israelis and, more generally, to Jews.

70%+ supported 7/10 and none helped the hostages, kept in inhumane conditions.

However, there is also context to this. There is no question that the Israelis have treated Gaza very badly for decades. There is context to this, but if you are a Palestinian with no real opportunities, why should you appreciate this.

The average age of a Gazan is 19 (!!). They have known nothing but the brutal dictatorship of Hamas and their education system has used every antisemitic trope in the book to indoctrinate them.

So, what is the solution. It is a meaningful deradicalisation program and this needs to take place in the context of allowing them a good education and the prospect of a good career thereafter.

It really doesn’t take more than a generation (20 years or so) to deradicalise a population. Look at Germany 1965 vs Germany 1945.

(And, for balance, and to a lesser extent, 7/10 and the current government has at least partially radicalised some of the Israeli population too. And some of the schools in Israel also teach what amounts to racist religion and history. So, this needs to be dealt with at the same time).

Maybe I am idealistic but I don’t think any of the above is impossible. However, we need to have a very different government in the U.S to push Israel into accepting that Palestinians have rights too and the elimination of the Iranian proxies whose aspirations are for continuous war and profiteering, regardless of the cost to their people.

You mock the idea that "Palestinians are dangerous" but do you not accept that Hamas are Palestinians and they are dangerous (or were, anyway, before the outcome of the war).

How can you argue that the Palestinians who joined or enabled Hamas were not dangerous to Israeli civilians, given the evidence of what happened on 7/10/2023?

It's rude to falsely accuse someone of propaganda.

@SharonEllis is correct - the question was whether Palestinian citizens of Israel have equal rights.

People bringing in how Palestinians are treated in the PA and Gaza are talking about something different because they aren't citizens of Israel.

Your own source re Arab citizens inside Israel (1948) indicates that the answer is largely positive because Arab citizens hold formal citizenship, meaning they have the right to vote in national elections, run for office, and access the civil court system.

On the more negative side, however, Human rights organizations and government reports note that Arab citizens face systemic inequalities in practice, for example via lower funding for public education and infrastructure in Arab municipalities. That is legitimate course for concern.

Except posts don't get deleted for being too logical and empathetic.

I think the settlers are a massive problem for Israel @Newbutoldfather

The higher birth rate of the settlers coupled with their extremist views does threaten the character of the country. And I can't believe some of the things that the far right ministers Ben Gvir and Smotrich have been allowed to say and do. People holding such extreme views need to be eliminated from being in government so I think the upcoming elections are vital for Israel voters to do that. I will be very disappointed if they don't.

@Twiglets1 ,

I think your above post is absolutely right.

For people who say Jews don’t need their own state, as all (or even some) countries should be entirely safe for Jews, you are entirely glossing over the history of the Jews since biblical times. They have been driven out of country after country after country. And every country they have been driven out of was, by definition, safe and welcoming for a while.

It is being governed by their own people which makes Israel safe for Jews, not laws or constitutions, which can be easily changed or undermined (look at even the U.S now).

However, your above post does hint at a horrible dilemma facing Israel. The birth rate of Palestinians is far higher than liberal Jews. However the settlers have similar birth rates, 4-6 children per couple. And, if this persists, coupled with religious immigration, what will be the character of Israel going forward? Will it still be a homeland for liberal Jews like me (I wouldn’t visit now with the current government) or become a Jewish theocracy, no better or worse than any other theocracy.

I think the international community has to push hard for a two state solution now, before it is too late.

The complete refusal to understand why Israel should need its own state is ironically exactly why Israel needs its own state.

We argue on MN and sometimes discussions are frustrating or upsetting. But facts are facts regardless. The international community isn’t calling for a one state solution and it won’t happen without external pressure. It isn’t workable given the 2 very different cultures & religions of Israelis & Palestinians, the long history of aggression on both sides and what would inevitably happen given the higher birth rate of one side compared to the other. It really is a step too far to suggest Jewish people should lose their country. They don’t have another Jewish country to settle in.

Palestinians deserve a country too and that is why reasonable people support a two state solution. Even that is going to be extremely hard to achieve seeing as the two sides never seem to agree to it at the same time. But Israel would literally never agree to a one state solution and with very good reason from their perspective.

I'm curious. What do you think should happen with the Palestinians. Are you of the they should be encouraged to emigrate camp. Are you along the Yitzhak Rabin view of wishing they would just disappear tomorrow morning. Maybe you're more Meir Kahane. Perhaps, I hope not, but you're more in the Ovadia Yosef camp. Which is it? As I said, just curious because you don't seem open to any other solution.

Is that a bad thing. Should it be decreasing.