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Conflict in the Middle East

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Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

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NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 26/10/2025 16:40

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

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Thedawnchorus · 30/10/2025 12:43

TheGirlWhoWantedToBeGod · 30/10/2025 10:49

I would love to see a country, Israel/Palestine/or whatever it is called, where all the people of the Abrahamic religions could just live together without killing each other. Brothers and sisters should love one another.

And that’s a lovely idea - in theory. In reality a one state solution wouldn’t be a solution at all. It would descend into a murderous bloodbath very quickly. And on both sides it’s the civilians, especially women and children, who would bear the brunt of whatever transpires.

A two state solution that recognises both Israelis and Palestinians have the right to a territory in that area, and seeks to establish this, is the only realistic way forward.

The only real question should be where the borders of these two states are.

And how moderates on both sides can actually stop extremists on both sides preventing this. And this is a really complicated question - don’t forget that in the 1990s a right wing extremist Jewish Israeli assassinated the country’s prime minister. - Yitzhak Rabin - as they though he was making too many concessions to the Palestinians.

If I went to South Africa in the 1980’s and said that in ten years you will be one country and everyone will have the same rights, both black and white people would have laughed in my face. I know the situation is not perfect yet but it is still better than the Apartheid years. I have more faith in humanity.

TheGirlWhoWantedToBeGod · 30/10/2025 10:49

I would love to see a country, Israel/Palestine/or whatever it is called, where all the people of the Abrahamic religions could just live together without killing each other. Brothers and sisters should love one another.

And that’s a lovely idea - in theory. In reality a one state solution wouldn’t be a solution at all. It would descend into a murderous bloodbath very quickly. And on both sides it’s the civilians, especially women and children, who would bear the brunt of whatever transpires.

A two state solution that recognises both Israelis and Palestinians have the right to a territory in that area, and seeks to establish this, is the only realistic way forward.

The only real question should be where the borders of these two states are.

And how moderates on both sides can actually stop extremists on both sides preventing this. And this is a really complicated question - don’t forget that in the 1990s a right wing extremist Jewish Israeli assassinated the country’s prime minister. - Yitzhak Rabin - as they though he was making too many concessions to the Palestinians.

SharonEllis · 30/10/2025 10:30

Thedawnchorus · 30/10/2025 09:07

I think there was some confusion about who I was referring to in my post that was deleted. I was referring to Mossad.

My views about the current state of Israel are fairly clear. I am not in favour of a two state solution because I don’t believe it would do anything to reduce the animosity. Albert Einstein was a staunch Zionist but would have been appalled at what is happening today. He was a firm believer in a homeland for Jews but in a binational state where Jews and Arabs had equal rights. This is what I have always believed is the only solution. Below is a letter which I don’t know if any of you have seen but I urge you to read it. In particular, look at the last sentence on the first page.

https://ia904604.us.archive.org/3/items/AlbertEinsteinLetterToTheNewYorkTimes.December41948/Einstein_Letter_NYT_4_Dec_1948_text.pdf

Bear in mind the Freedom Party or Tnuat Haherut was the precursor to todays Likud party.

If you still think I’m antisemitic after that, not a lot I can do.

A letter written by other people 70 years ago - before the atrocities committed against Israel by Palestinian terrorists over many years proves nothing other than what those people thought at the time. It certainly doesn't prove you're not an antisemite - people can only judge that on what you post , or what you omit in your posts.

Thedawnchorus · 30/10/2025 09:07

I think there was some confusion about who I was referring to in my post that was deleted. I was referring to Mossad.

My views about the current state of Israel are fairly clear. I am not in favour of a two state solution because I don’t believe it would do anything to reduce the animosity. Albert Einstein was a staunch Zionist but would have been appalled at what is happening today. He was a firm believer in a homeland for Jews but in a binational state where Jews and Arabs had equal rights. This is what I have always believed is the only solution. Below is a letter which I don’t know if any of you have seen but I urge you to read it. In particular, look at the last sentence on the first page.

https://ia904604.us.archive.org/3/items/AlbertEinsteinLetterToTheNewYorkTimes.December41948/Einstein_Letter_NYT_4_Dec_1948_text.pdf

Bear in mind the Freedom Party or Tnuat Haherut was the precursor to todays Likud party.

If you still think I’m antisemitic after that, not a lot I can do.

https://ia904604.us.archive.org/3/items/AlbertEinsteinLetterToTheNewYorkTimes.December41948/Einstein_Letter_NYT_4_Dec_1948_text.pdf

thingsarelookingupfornigel · 29/10/2025 21:51

Smacks of bullying to me.

BelleHathor · 29/10/2025 21:51

Thedawnchorus · 29/10/2025 21:47

I think this is probably going to be my last post but I really thought you were above this threatening to cancel people. I really thought you were bigger than this. As we discussed earlier, if diplomacy and discussion fails, what is the only other alternative.

Sorry you're havimg to experience this, take a break and try not to take it personally ❤️💐

BelleHathor · 29/10/2025 21:49

Nope, I will not watch who I engage with . It was clear what Dawn was referencing as it followed on from.an earlier conversation. I mean Netanyahu has been doing a tour of interviews with American influencers over the last month.

Anyone politically engaged will be watching the shockingly openly racist coverage of the Mamdani election cycle or Pro Israeli influencers like Laura Loomer posting the below which is being boosted by the new X algorithm in a company owned by Elon Musk who Netanyahu referred to as a friend.

Don't forget Tommy Robinson was in Israel last week invited by a member of the government.

Thedawnchorus · 29/10/2025 21:47

dairydebris · 29/10/2025 21:33

You said Bingo to the poster who said exactly that. The post has been deleted now.

Watch who you agree with.

I think this is probably going to be my last post but I really thought you were above this threatening to cancel people. I really thought you were bigger than this. As we discussed earlier, if diplomacy and discussion fails, what is the only other alternative.

dairydebris · 29/10/2025 21:33

BelleHathor · 29/10/2025 21:24

No, you in some attempt to accuse me of something I never said or implied for what end, who knows? Said that.

I have posted 2 links to 2 projects (1 run by a research group with close links to Netanyahu's party) that have been widely discussed on social media especially in America.

The Israeli government has specifically said that it is increasing its propaganda budget and is actively recruiting influencers, many of whom are currently engaging in racist targeting of Muslims. Just look at the campaign to target Mamdani in the New York Mayoral race.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240717-israeli-ministry-funding-multi-million-dollar-disinformation-campaign-spreading-islamophobia/

You said Bingo to the poster who said exactly that. The post has been deleted now.

Watch who you agree with.

Thedawnchorus · 29/10/2025 21:24

dairydebris · 29/10/2025 20:57

Who are you?

From your faux naive post about Hind where you pretended not to know much at all, to the really quite shocking extreme views you've expressed here and above. You believe Israel has no right to exist. You hope for a OSS. You admit that means the erasure of the only Jewish nation in the world. You know a lot about historical wrongs by Israel, but say nothing of the historical wrongs of Palestinian terrorists. You tell actual lies about Israeli society, lies specifically calculated to cause hatred. And here, you've suggested that the rise of Islamophobia and the flag shaggers is an orchestrated campaign by the 'you know who's because nothing could make them look better and in order to make Muslims look worse. A really insidious use of a trope, suggesting 'you know who's are behind the scenes pulling strings and manipulating things to put Muslims down.

You haven't posted on any threads other than CITME.

I find it deeply sinister that there are people posting on here with these kinds of views.

We had a discussion about this and I think you know what my real views are. I would love to see a country, Israel/Palestine/or whatever it is called, where all the people of the Abrahamic religions could just live together without killing each other. Brothers and sisters should love one another.

BelleHathor · 29/10/2025 21:24

dairydebris · 29/10/2025 21:12

I cant believe what im reading. You think the rise in Islamophobia and anti immigrant feeling is a co ordinated plot by You Know Who's?

No, you in some attempt to accuse me of something I never said or implied for what end, who knows? Said that.

I have posted 2 links to 2 projects (1 run by a research group with close links to Netanyahu's party) that have been widely discussed on social media especially in America.

The Israeli government has specifically said that it is increasing its propaganda budget and is actively recruiting influencers, many of whom are currently engaging in racist targeting of Muslims. Just look at the campaign to target Mamdani in the New York Mayoral race.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240717-israeli-ministry-funding-multi-million-dollar-disinformation-campaign-spreading-islamophobia/

SharonEllis · 29/10/2025 21:20

dairydebris · 29/10/2025 21:14

I'm guessing not Voldemort?

This thread has taken a real dark turn and I've reported my own post to highlight my concerns.

I actually cant believe what I'm reading now.

Its an absolute shitshow. Who is reading this stuff and thinking its normal?

dairydebris · 29/10/2025 21:14

SharonEllis · 29/10/2025 21:09

Who is 'you know who'?

I'm guessing not Voldemort?

This thread has taken a real dark turn and I've reported my own post to highlight my concerns.

I actually cant believe what I'm reading now.

dairydebris · 29/10/2025 21:12

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I cant believe what im reading. You think the rise in Islamophobia and anti immigrant feeling is a co ordinated plot by You Know Who's?

SharonEllis · 29/10/2025 21:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Who is 'you know who'?

BelleHathor · 29/10/2025 21:07

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

dairydebris · 29/10/2025 20:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Who are you?

From your faux naive post about Hind where you pretended not to know much at all, to the really quite shocking extreme views you've expressed here and above. You believe Israel has no right to exist. You hope for a OSS. You admit that means the erasure of the only Jewish nation in the world. You know a lot about historical wrongs by Israel, but say nothing of the historical wrongs of Palestinian terrorists. You tell actual lies about Israeli society, lies specifically calculated to cause hatred. And here, you've suggested that the rise of Islamophobia and the flag shaggers is an orchestrated campaign by the 'you know who's because nothing could make them look better and in order to make Muslims look worse. A really insidious use of a trope, suggesting 'you know who's are behind the scenes pulling strings and manipulating things to put Muslims down.

You haven't posted on any threads other than CITME.

I find it deeply sinister that there are people posting on here with these kinds of views.

BananaPeels · 29/10/2025 20:50

I’m not sure if this has been answered but I have never understood - why is Jordan not occupying Palestinian territory since that country covers the majority of Palestinian land. The bit that Isreal was created out of was the much smaller bit. Surely Jordanian and Palestinian culture is the same and if not, why not?

Thedawnchorus · 29/10/2025 20:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BelleHathor · 29/10/2025 20:11

Nothing has changed. The only difference now is that Israel’s support by American religious fanatics is at a level where they can literally do anything they want.

Thankfully evangelical support is reducing rapidly by the day.

There are many Americans leaving the Evangelical church as they realise the lies contained in the Scofield Bible. There are many prominent influencers exposing the preachers who peddle these mistruths.

It's getting so bad that Israeli government is specifically targeting churches for influence operations

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/how-3-2-million-israeli-campaign-will-digitally-target-arizona-christians-anti-palestinian-ads

Thedawnchorus · 29/10/2025 19:38

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 29/10/2025 00:05

All the incidents you quoted date from long before the ‘Palestinian’ identity and nationalism of today was even created and it was the Palestinians as we know them today who perpetrated what I mentioned in my post.

I raise you the below though if you want to go back that far in history to when Palestinians as a people were just Jews and Arabs:

1920 NEBI MUSA RIOTS
Due to the changing geopolitical landscape of the Middle East (e.g. the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the Sykes-Picot agreement between the United Kingdom and France) and the influx of Jewish immigrants and refugees into Palestine, local Arab leaders began escalating Arab-Jewish tensions. In March of 1920, a widespread demonstration against the Jews of Palestine resulted in the looting of businesses and Arab attacks against Jews. Rioters carried antisemitic slogans, including “Palestine is our land and the Jews are our dogs!” and “de@th to Jews!”
Worried, the Jewish community appealed to the British for protection, but the request was denied. Jewish groups then began arming themselves and practising self-defense. On April 4th, during the Nebi Musa festival, 60,000-70,000 Arabs congregated in Jerusalem and some began attacking Jews. Amin al-Husayni, the British-appointed Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (who later became a Nazi-sympathizer), delivered a virulently antisemitic speech. A riot broke out, with Arabs completely ransacking the Jewish Quarter and desecrating and burning Torah scrolls. Jews were raped and murdered, and the British were extremely slow to respond, only restoring order 4 days later. Christians painted crosses on the outside of their homes so that the rioters would know to spare them. In the end, 4 Jews were killed and 216 were severely injured. 300 Jews had to be evacuated from the Old City. Jews immediately accused the British of complicity, some going so far as to claim that the British had encouraged the Mufti to incite the violence. To make matters worse, a British commission then blamed the Jews for the violence, instead of the Arabs. Frustrated with the British, the Jews formed the Haganah, the precursor to the IDF, to defend themselves.

1929 HEBRON & SAFED MASSACRES
During the British Mandate, Jews had virtually no control of Jewish holy sites, including the Kotel, also known as the Western Wall, the holiest site where they are currently allowed to pray. On Yom Kippur, 1928, the Jews — with the permission of the British — put up a barrier at the Kotel to separate the men and women praying. The barrier was only meant to stay up for 25 hours. Though the Kotel has no significance in Islam, this infuriated the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. He instructed Muslims to disrupt Jewish prayer at the Kotel in any way they could. Rumors spread that the Jews were trying to take control of Temple Mount, which escalated tensions and resulted in antisemitic violence, including a stabbing. In August of 1929, the Haganah offered protection to the Jewish community of Hebron, a mixed Ashkenazi-Sephardi community. The community, largely religious and apolitical, refused, as they believed that the Arabs would only target Zionists. Unfortunately, the opposite happened. The local Arabs offered to spare the Sepharadim of Hebron if they gave up the Ashkenazim; the Sepharadim refused. As such, 67-69 Jews were brutally massacred. The descriptions of the violence are hard to read: a boy’s head was torn off, a 7-year-old was tied to a door and tortured for hours on end, women were raped, many were mutilated, and 7 men were castrated. Out of 20,000 Arabs in the city, only 28 families protected Jews, at great risk to themselves. The survivors were evacuated by the British. Historian Hillel Cohen considers the 1929 Hebron Massacre the true beginning to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, marking the point of no return in the complete disintegration of Jewish-Arab relations. The pogrom united the various Jewish communities of Palestine under the Zionist cause, as they realized that no matter where they stood politically, the Arabs would target them anyway.
Riots and pogroms spread to other cities, including Jerusalem and Safed. Overall, 133 Jews were killed. The extremist Jewish paramilitary groups, the Irgun and Lehi, were formed in response to these massacres.

1936 JAFFA RIOTS
On April 15, 1936, followers of an antisemitic Syrian preacher shot 3 Jewish men, with only one surviving. In response, members of the Irgun shot two Arabs. By the 17th of April, violence between the Jews and the Arabs escalated. On April 19th, the unfounded blood libel that “many Arabs had been killed by Jews” resulted in an Arab attack against the Jews of Jaffa. A mob attacked Jewish businesses, and Jews were killed in the streets.
Jews were mercilessly stabbed and beaten. Jewish businesses were destroyed. The rioting lasted 3 days until it was suppressed by the British military. 9 Jews were killed. 12,000 Jews fled Jaffa; many then had to stay in refugee camps. As a result of the violence, the Jews of Jaffa demanded that their neighborhoods be incorporated into Tel Aviv, which would offer them greater protection. Historians mark this event as the beginning of the 1936-1939 Arab Revolt in Palestine. In May of 1936, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem called for a general strike against the Jews, calling Zionists terrorists and comparing them to Nazis (an odd comparison, considering the Mufti was an actual Nazi sympathizer himself). Throughout the course of the revolt, Arabs killed some 500 Jews.

1938 TIBERIAS POGROM
During the 1936-1939 Arab Revolt, 70 armed Arab rioters entered a Jewish neighborhood in Tiberias and slaughtered 19 Jews, including 11 children. The Jews were virtually protection-less, with only 15 Jewish guards protecting a neighborhood of over 2000 people. Two of the guards were killed during the pogrom. Jewish homes and the local synagogue were set on fire. In one of the homes, a mother and her five children were massacred.
A British representative stated: "It was systematically organized and savagely executed. Of the nineteen Jews killed, including women and children, all save four were stabbed to death. That night and the following day the troops engaged the raiding gangs.” After the attack, the Irgun proposed a joint retaliatory attack with the Haganah. However, the Haganah did not agree, as its policy was to abstain from offensive (vs. defensive) violence. As such, no retaliatory attack took place.
25 days after the pogrom, local Arabs murdered the Jewish mayor of Tiberias.

Here’s more:

www.fondapol.org/en/study/pogroms-in-palestine-before-the-creation-of-the-state-of-israel-1830-1948/

TBF I personally don’t feel much about people who had no relation to me dying almost a century ago.

Despite being British myself, I can acknowledge that the Brits certainly did screw the Jews over to appease the Arabs, who were a much greater risk in terms of violence and violent unrest, at that time.

You’re not seriously saying the Palestinians want to avenge the Brits killed by the Jews too?

You really don’t understand the issue. It’s not about which side committed the most egregious crimes and it’s certainly not a game of me telling you facts while you copy and paste. Israel was born from terrorism. European Zionist terrorists were rewarded for their terrorism by the UK pulling out and leaving them to go on a barbaric genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestine resulting in the Nakba. You talk about why something happened so long ago is relevant. It’s simple. What is happening in Gaza and the West Bank is nothing more than the latest iteration of Plan Dalet which was put in place by Ben-Gurion. Nothing has changed. The only difference now is that Israel’s support by American religious fanatics is at a level where they can literally do anything they want.

dairydebris · 29/10/2025 11:19

DancefloorAcrobatics · 29/10/2025 11:11

I agree with you to the extent that both sides had a legitimate claim to the land post WW1 ...
But, I question this for post WW2, with the huge influx of European Jews. The local population had every right to be worried. But foreign rule & politics swept their voices under the carpet. Sadly a safe place for one group doesn't mean the same for another. After all, resources in a desert landscape are scares... and if you have a look at the geological make up of the Gaza strip, you'll understand why both sides will fight for it until the bitter end.

I dont think its the geological make up.
I think its Jerusalem.

Those European Jews fleeing genocide and persecution deserved a place too.

I think both sides need leadership who admit the rights of the other for peace to start.

Agree it seems far off now.

DancefloorAcrobatics · 29/10/2025 11:11

dairydebris · 29/10/2025 10:43

I do feel the Palestinian grievance is fair though, a lot of Arab identities got their nations around this time, I think it was reasonable for Palestinian Arabs to hope for the same. I still think its reasonable.

The problem has arisen because Palestinian leadership of the time refused to share any of the land they felt should be theirs with Jews.

Personally I find the Israeli Jewish claim on the land to be as powerful as the Palestinian Arab. I think it's right they share.

I agree with you to the extent that both sides had a legitimate claim to the land post WW1 ...
But, I question this for post WW2, with the huge influx of European Jews. The local population had every right to be worried. But foreign rule & politics swept their voices under the carpet. Sadly a safe place for one group doesn't mean the same for another. After all, resources in a desert landscape are scares... and if you have a look at the geological make up of the Gaza strip, you'll understand why both sides will fight for it until the bitter end.

dairydebris · 29/10/2025 10:43

DancefloorAcrobatics · 29/10/2025 10:23

@JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet

I think to bring these historical incidents into some sort of context one needs to understand that the Arabs as a nation didn't exist as such. They are/ were tribal people, which is of course linked to the land as well as the control of trade routes through the desert. Otterman or European rule did not extinguish this. They could not control individual tribes and had somewhat a limited influence on the way of life of the Arabs as a nation. Otterman rule lasted as long as it did because they let them get on with it on a local level... unlike the Europeans.

I do feel the Palestinian grievance is fair though, a lot of Arab identities got their nations around this time, I think it was reasonable for Palestinian Arabs to hope for the same. I still think its reasonable.

The problem has arisen because Palestinian leadership of the time refused to share any of the land they felt should be theirs with Jews.

Personally I find the Israeli Jewish claim on the land to be as powerful as the Palestinian Arab. I think it's right they share.

DancefloorAcrobatics · 29/10/2025 10:23

@JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet

I think to bring these historical incidents into some sort of context one needs to understand that the Arabs as a nation didn't exist as such. They are/ were tribal people, which is of course linked to the land as well as the control of trade routes through the desert. Otterman or European rule did not extinguish this. They could not control individual tribes and had somewhat a limited influence on the way of life of the Arabs as a nation. Otterman rule lasted as long as it did because they let them get on with it on a local level... unlike the Europeans.