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Conflict in the Middle East

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Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

640 replies

NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 26/10/2025 16:40

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

OP posts:
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SharonEllis · 31/10/2025 07:34

FruitLooped · 31/10/2025 07:29

History books are written by the winners. I think we need to be very mindful
of that.

What does that mean? Its obviously and indisputably untrue. In the context of this conflict who are the winners? What did they win? There are thousands of history books written about the region from many different perspectives. Are all those historians winners? What did they win?

FruitLooped · 31/10/2025 07:29

History books are written by the winners. I think we need to be very mindful
of that.

FruitLooped · 31/10/2025 07:25

“The redrawing of borders by European colonial powers to establish influence in the region, creating artificial nation-states, led to conflicts between different ethnic and religious groups. The creation of Iraq, in 1921, brought together Sunni Arabs, Shiite Arabs and Kurds who had historically lived in separate regions under the rule of the Sunni minority. The tensions between the different groups impacted the escalation of militant Islam and conflicts that continue into the 21st century.”

FruitLooped · 31/10/2025 06:59

@NameChangedUnderstandingGained

From my limited understanding : the collapse of the Ottoman Empire (once thriving) was due to WW1 - and when new borders were defined, communities were split (Sykes Picot) and literally pencil lines were drawn to divide territory with no concern for the families that lived there.

Causing poverty, conflict etc - the West wants to control the Middle East for oil and gas reserves.

I think the Middle East would see Israel as an example of Western control, and taking more of their land/resources (the West will support Israel historically).
And then the West are anti-immigration when people try and escape poverty and war that we created in their countries.

fortinbra · 31/10/2025 06:55

The British government signed the Balfour agreement and later supported the creation of Israel due to its own political interests. Sadly our establishment has never been motivated by humanitarian reasons.

SharonEllis · 31/10/2025 06:47

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But what narrative is the antisemitic Roald Dahl backing up here?

thingsarelookingupfornigel · 31/10/2025 06:34

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SharonEllis · 31/10/2025 06:30

NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 31/10/2025 06:29

"Indigenous thousands of years ago.
It would be like giving the UK back to the Romans!"

The Romans weren't indigenous to the UK though, so your example is incorrect.

I don't think facts trouble many people on this thread. Its an incredible insight into a mindset though.

NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 31/10/2025 06:29

Notsolittlebutstillsoyoung · 30/10/2025 21:32

Indigenous thousands of years ago.
It would be like giving the UK back to the Romans!

Yes, there has been a minority. Jewish population there throughout, but that doesn't give them the right to boot out people that have lived in the land far longer and far more recently.

Think of how many times the UK has changed hands over the past 3000 years! Israel existing in ancient times is irrelevant now.

"Indigenous thousands of years ago.
It would be like giving the UK back to the Romans!"

The Romans weren't indigenous to the UK though, so your example is incorrect.

OP posts:
SharonEllis · 31/10/2025 06:27

Notsolittlebutstillsoyoung · 30/10/2025 21:32

Indigenous thousands of years ago.
It would be like giving the UK back to the Romans!

Yes, there has been a minority. Jewish population there throughout, but that doesn't give them the right to boot out people that have lived in the land far longer and far more recently.

Think of how many times the UK has changed hands over the past 3000 years! Israel existing in ancient times is irrelevant now.

So where should Jewish people live?

SharonEllis · 31/10/2025 06:22

Grateful321 · 31/10/2025 03:42

Palestinians are native to Palestine…. Regardless of their religion. Jews from all over the world are NOT native to the state of ‘Israel’.

Palestine was a country, is a country and will always be a country. No amount of ethnic cleansing is going to get rid of the Palestinian true identity.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Going-Solo-Roald-Dahl/dp/0141311428 <- if anyone is interested in reading (with an open mind of course).

Edited

No amount of ethnic cleansing will get rid of Jewish identity and Jewish ties to the land of Israel.

Why are you posting a link to the autobiography of known antisemite Roald Dahl? What relevance?

Grateful321 · 31/10/2025 03:42

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 30/10/2025 22:31

Also the same as saying all Palestinians are native to the geographical region of Palestine which was never a country and does not encompass the Arabian peninsular, Egypt, Yemen, and Algeria among others.

Palestinians are native to Palestine…. Regardless of their religion. Jews from all over the world are NOT native to the state of ‘Israel’.

Palestine was a country, is a country and will always be a country. No amount of ethnic cleansing is going to get rid of the Palestinian true identity.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Going-Solo-Roald-Dahl/dp/0141311428 <- if anyone is interested in reading (with an open mind of course).

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 30/10/2025 23:01

Thedawnchorus · 30/10/2025 22:41

What total nonsense. Arabic referred to the language they spoke. Long before Sykes and Picot decided to divide up the Middle East for the sake of their colonial masters, individual Arab countries had their identities. Mesopotamians called themselves Iraqi, Syrians called themselves Souri, Egyptians Masri, Lebanese Lebnani, Jordanians Urdani and Palestinians Falastini. You are right about Palestinian refugees and their decedents expelled from Palestine during the Nakba in 1948 still refer to themselves as Falastini. They remember their heritage and how they were driven out of their land by European terrorists who have a bizarre claim to the land based on a mystical book which was written thousands of years ago.

Only total nonsense if it doesn’t fit your very clear agenda I guess:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_identity

Palestinian identity - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_identity

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 30/10/2025 22:47

pipaw34782 · 30/10/2025 22:21

Blaming Jewish people for pogroms against them. I wish I could say this is a new low but I've seen it all before.

No low is too low for this lot.

Now we have terrorist inversion in addition to Holocaust inversion.

They skew facts so much it’s a wonder they can even see straight.

Thedawnchorus · 30/10/2025 22:41

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 30/10/2025 21:03

I would say that most if not all Palestinians and Jordanians (many Jordanians still do) would have described themselves as Arabs up until 1964.

Today the Palestinian population of Jordan is estimated at 50-70%.

The majority of Palestinians in Jordan have Jordanian citizenship but are still registered as Palestinian refugees in comparison to every other refugee ceasing to be one when they are granted citizenship of a host nation. This is despite most of them being descendants of ‘Palestinians’ who were in Jordan before the Arab Palestinian nationalist identity had even been created by Yasser Arafat.

Not difficult to understand why.

What total nonsense. Arabic referred to the language they spoke. Long before Sykes and Picot decided to divide up the Middle East for the sake of their colonial masters, individual Arab countries had their identities. Mesopotamians called themselves Iraqi, Syrians called themselves Souri, Egyptians Masri, Lebanese Lebnani, Jordanians Urdani and Palestinians Falastini. You are right about Palestinian refugees and their decedents expelled from Palestine during the Nakba in 1948 still refer to themselves as Falastini. They remember their heritage and how they were driven out of their land by European terrorists who have a bizarre claim to the land based on a mystical book which was written thousands of years ago.

JustSomeRandomOnTheInternet · 30/10/2025 22:31

Grateful321 · 30/10/2025 21:38

Exactly!

Not all Jewish are native to the land. That’s like saying all Muslims are native to Saudi Arabia! They’re not! All Muslims around the world cannot claim citizenship/dual citizenship of Saudi Arabia and boot the actual citizens out!

Also the same as saying all Palestinians are native to the geographical region of Palestine which was never a country and does not encompass the Arabian peninsular, Egypt, Yemen, and Algeria among others.

pipaw34782 · 30/10/2025 22:21

Thedawnchorus · 29/10/2025 19:38

You really don’t understand the issue. It’s not about which side committed the most egregious crimes and it’s certainly not a game of me telling you facts while you copy and paste. Israel was born from terrorism. European Zionist terrorists were rewarded for their terrorism by the UK pulling out and leaving them to go on a barbaric genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestine resulting in the Nakba. You talk about why something happened so long ago is relevant. It’s simple. What is happening in Gaza and the West Bank is nothing more than the latest iteration of Plan Dalet which was put in place by Ben-Gurion. Nothing has changed. The only difference now is that Israel’s support by American religious fanatics is at a level where they can literally do anything they want.

Blaming Jewish people for pogroms against them. I wish I could say this is a new low but I've seen it all before.

cupfinalchaos · 30/10/2025 21:57

Thank you op for educating yourself and trying to educate others. It’s hard to take in the scale of it isn’t it. My parents are both Holocaust survivors and most of their relatives were murdered.

Arabs make up 20% of the Israeli population and are afforded every opportunity to thrive. It’s a tiny but incredible country and I know that if antisemitism gets any worse in the UK, I will go and live there.

Speaking of which, where are the marches in protest to the tragedy of the Sudanese slaughter?
No Jews.. no news.

Grateful321 · 30/10/2025 21:38

Notsolittlebutstillsoyoung · 30/10/2025 21:32

Indigenous thousands of years ago.
It would be like giving the UK back to the Romans!

Yes, there has been a minority. Jewish population there throughout, but that doesn't give them the right to boot out people that have lived in the land far longer and far more recently.

Think of how many times the UK has changed hands over the past 3000 years! Israel existing in ancient times is irrelevant now.

Exactly!

Not all Jewish are native to the land. That’s like saying all Muslims are native to Saudi Arabia! They’re not! All Muslims around the world cannot claim citizenship/dual citizenship of Saudi Arabia and boot the actual citizens out!

BananaPeels · 30/10/2025 21:35

Notsolittlebutstillsoyoung · 30/10/2025 21:32

Indigenous thousands of years ago.
It would be like giving the UK back to the Romans!

Yes, there has been a minority. Jewish population there throughout, but that doesn't give them the right to boot out people that have lived in the land far longer and far more recently.

Think of how many times the UK has changed hands over the past 3000 years! Israel existing in ancient times is irrelevant now.

Then why has Uluru been handed back to the Aboriginal population?

i’m asking genuinely as I really don’t understand why some indigenous populations are considered valid and others not.

Notsolittlebutstillsoyoung · 30/10/2025 21:32

BananaPeels · 30/10/2025 21:27

But if the Jewish population were the indigenous population wouldn’t it be right to give them the land back. Much like some land (albeit a small amount) has been given back to the indigenous populations in Australia and the US? What is the difference?

Edited

Indigenous thousands of years ago.
It would be like giving the UK back to the Romans!

Yes, there has been a minority. Jewish population there throughout, but that doesn't give them the right to boot out people that have lived in the land far longer and far more recently.

Think of how many times the UK has changed hands over the past 3000 years! Israel existing in ancient times is irrelevant now.

BananaPeels · 30/10/2025 21:27

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Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

But if the Jewish population were the indigenous population wouldn’t it be right to give them the land back. Much like some land (albeit a small amount) has been given back to the indigenous populations in Australia and the US? What is the difference?

Notsolittlebutstillsoyoung · 30/10/2025 21:24

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Notsolittlebutstillsoyoung · 30/10/2025 21:22

dairydebris · 30/10/2025 20:52

So you dont think Israel should exist where it is then? You dont think the UN should have given them any land at all?

I don't think it should have been created there, no. I think it was an incredibly unfair decision by today's moral standards.

However, we are where we are, and Israelis have made it their home, and so now we need to either look for a fair two-state solution, or a one state unified land which is neither called Israel nor Palestine, and in which both people can live fairly. The status quo is not acceptable though.

AgentPidge · 30/10/2025 21:20

Mangetouts · 26/10/2025 20:19

The Bible....hmmm. Excuse me for not taking the content of that as gospel (and excuse the pun).

It does give the context though of why what is now Israel was chosen as the Jewish homeland.

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