Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

Like all this stuff, it is complex. There is no perfect logical conclusion or ‘gotcha’ argument.

As a Jew, however, I do think the Shoah was unique, and finding somewhere safe for Jews to live was a rational and compassionate response. And I don’t think the existence of Israel in any way fed into the antisemitism I have experienced (limited) of that my parents did.

I still think that it is important to keep Israel as safe for Jews, and, IMO, that means Jewish. Jewish doesn’t necessarily mean religious, though. Israel has always welcomed secular Jews in the same way as the Nazis welcomed them into the gas chambers.

I also do think that anyone who disputes the existence of Israel is antisemitic. Most nation states were in some ways appropriated, and that certainly includes the U.S, Australia and Peru. And the settlers all thought they had racial/religious justification for dispossessing the original inhabitants. However, I don’t hear too many people saying that they shouldn’t exist.

However, as long as the diaspora continues to have strong links to Israel, and especially to donate money, it is not unreasonable to believe that Israel’s behaviour feeds into how the diaspora is treated. That gives Israel a responsibility to the diaspora to behave in a decent way, something they are singularly failing to do under Netanyahu. And it also means the diaspora should be loud about criticising Israel’s racism and expansionism, in the same way as I would expect decent Muslims to criticise 9/11 and 7/10.

Under international law, if a genocide is determined to be plausible or possible but the International Court of Justice (ICJ) has not yet reached a final verdict, all states that are party to the 1948 Genocide Convention are legally obligated to take immediate, proactive measures to prevent it.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say. As I said before nobody said Jewish people are the only people to have suffered in history. I think there are special features to antisemitism, not least its longevity 'the oldest hatred' but Im not sure what purpose this discussion serves.

So tired of disputing the claim seen here by @rainingsnoring that "the UN and many others who understand the situation have defined it as genocide".

I'm pretty confident those "who understand the situation" already know this because I've posted the correction so often on this board, but a UN commission does not officially speak for the UN.

The UN as an organisation has not defined the Gaza war as a genocide, it is waiting for the International Court of Justice to reach a verdict.

From the BBC (September 2025)

The UN says it cannot make a legal determination as to whether a situation constitutes genocide under international law. It says a situation is referred to as genocide only after a competent national or international court has declared it as such.

When asked by journalists on Tuesday if he would consider using the word genocide to describe Israel's actions in Gaza, UN human rights chief Volker Türk said: "It's for the court to decide whether it's genocide or not, and we see the evidence mounting."

A spokesman for the UK government also said the decision was up to a court, but added that this "does not take away from our position that Israel's actions are appalling".

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) is currently hearing a case brought by South Africa that accuses Israeli forces of genocide, but it could take years to reach a conclusion. Israel has called the case "wholly unfounded" and based on "biased and false claims".

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8641wv0n4go

I am not sure I agree with you there@SharonEllis.

Of course The Jews have been exeptionalised for being Jews time and time again throughout history.

But so too have Muslims have been exeptionalised for being Muslim time and time again throughout history, for example. They were a targeted group around the end of the Ottoman Empire, with serious efforts made to ethnically cleansed them from Bosnia over many decades. They tired that again in the '90s. The Chinese government constantly targets then, sending them to re-education camps and prison, forfeiting all property etc. Myanmar Muslims, Rohingya, were targeted for genocide by their government just a few years ago when 700,000 plus were forced out of their country. Those who did not get out were slaughtered, raped and burned out of their homes and villages. In India, there have been constant waves of extreme violence against Muslims over the past 100 years. And of course, we cannot ignore Gaza.

As the Catholics have been exeptionalised for being Catholic time and time again throughout history. If we want to go back 1000s of years, the Romans really enjoyed the torture of Christians (Catholic at the time). When Protestants became a thing, the British Protestants especially, made Irish Catholics more or less illegal in their own country for the better part of 500 years. Famine there in the 1800s, driven by anti Catholic economic and political policy, meant that those who avoided starvation fled to the States, Australia or Canada. There, they continued to face anti Catholic discrimination from the British Protestants who ran those places. Prohibitions from hiring Catholics for UK government jobs in the North of Ireland were in place right up to the time of M. Thatcher - not so long ago. Indeed, to this day, no Catholic could sit on the throne or be PM. Christians are being wiped out of the Middle East (including Israel) - there are hardly any left now.

Don't forget that Women have been exeptionalised for being women time and time again throughout history.Until very recently, most women in most countries in the world were second class citizens who had few rights over their person, children, or money. There are devastating levels of hate meted out - continuously.

Black people have been exeptionalised for being Black time and time again throughout history.

The poor (both men and women) have been exeptionalised for their poverty time and time again throughout history.

I mean, this is quite a crude, off the cuff example of what I mean. We could go on (but I have to go back to work).

I don't think that Jews suffered more than other groups in certain times in history. Of course there has always been, and will always be, anti semitism, racism, misogyny, sexism, bigotry, xenophobia, homophobia, and so on. As long as we have humans, we have those. BUT - they are ascendant only sometimes, and sometimes they are not.

But, the biggest crime of all, the effort made to exterminate all Jews in the abomination of WW11, was definitely a horror that has to be the biggest stain on our collective humanity.

But oher genocide scholars disagree with him. They are all 'personal opinions' based on different access to and readings,interpretation of evidence. Your favourite genocide scholar is not necessarily more authoritative than another.

I think that Bartov and many of his colleagues, who are also world renowned genocide scholars, would know more about the subject than anyone in the UN, let alone a personal opinion on CITME. When an Israeli professor who has spent his entire career studying the holocaust and genocides declares it is definitely a genocide, I think it is offensive for people to be genocide deniers.

🙈

No good will come of it, that's for sure. Enjoy the Bank Holiday!

And? we could throw out names all day. The contention was that the UN had declared a genocide in Gaza. That is not true.

Fucking hell who resurrected this dustbin fire of a thread 🙄

Omer Bartov??

Yes, Its factual to say racists exploit the actions of the government of Israel as an excuse to attack Jews. What is often not pointed out, by the way, is that the first spike in antisemitic attacks was immediately after 7 October in other words celebratory attacks, if you like, before Israel responded to Hamas's attack. That is also a fact.
It is not a fact that there is a genocide in Gaza and it is not a fact that 'The UN....have defined it' as genocide. A UN Commission has stated that they believe that acts of genocide have been carried out. They have presented their findings, which have been disputed by many who in your words 'understand the situation'. The Commission does not speak for the UN as a whole.

As for 'many others who understand the situation' I don't even know what that means. Maybe Albanese, the openly antisemitic special rapporteur or Amnesty International who had to change the definition of genocide to make it fit?

And don't try and claim that this is racism against 'brown-skinned people' and turn this into a white v brown issue. Perhaps you don't realise that most Israelis are 'brown'?

I don't think anyone is denying the suffering of others. To try and pretend the suffering of Jews was just part of a generally shit time for all is not historically accurate. The Jews have been exeptionalised for being Jews time and time again throughout history. Most notably barred from certain employment and made to live in special areas (the Pale being only one of many many examples) which means they always stand out. The fact that others suffer too is not as significant as you make out - noone has ever said only the Jews suffered in the past. Obvioisly the serfs had a rough time but that is a completely different issue. What matters is that Jewish communities have usually been defined as a group and targeted as a group. You mention the Pogroms, the Jews were continuously blamed for various things like bad harvests. Another common pattern in triggering violence against Jews. Sometimes Jewish individuals will have been caught up in other 'categories'. Thats neither here nor there.

No @SharonEllis, making that suggestion is not antisemitic. It is factual.
It is highly offensive to state that there is no genocide in Gaza. The UN and many others who understand the situation have defined it as genocide. It is typical of the sort of racist who just dismisses the deaths of brown skinned people who live many thousands of miles away without any thought. As I said, this is not the only example. I haven't read most of the posts but have already seen several examples. Unfortunately, some people have racism in build inside them and will not see it and just don't care.

Only a racist links the actions of the government of Israel to the lives of Jewish people outside Israel. That is pure antisemitism. It's not offensive to say there is no genocide in Gaza. Its a perfectly factual and legitimate position. You can disagree with it but its not offensive to say it.

You are quite right that a huge amount of double standards exists on this board.
There are several blatantly Islamophobic/racist posts about Arabs and a very offensive one stating that 'there is no genocide in Gaza'. very few people even seem to notice. Meanwhile, posts that are perceived as antisemitic get immediately reported and deleted.
None of this actually helps Jewish people in general and the actions of the state of Israel certainly do not.

I’m so glad you went to Poland op, and I wish more people would and gain the insight it’s given you.

For Christ's sake there is nothing to follow through. I don't know what it is that you're so desperate for me to say.

A simple comment. Ha ha. It was a loaded comment intended to elicit a response. I've given you plenty of opportunity to follow it through but you have chosen not to. Lets leave it there then.

I'm not fishing for anything. I don't see why you're desperate to assign me some sinister motive for a simple comment. If you want to accuse me of something just say it, otherwise move on.

As I said, I think you're being disingenuous. You jumped in on a post where I was answering what I saw as bigoted post from another poster. What is it you were expecting? What were you fishing for?

Because I had a question about it. It's not complicated.

I think you're being disingenuous. Let me ask you then. Why did you jump onto a comment when I pulled someone up for what I thought was a bigoted comment.