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Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

640 replies

NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 26/10/2025 16:40

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

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Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 14:52

BananaPeels · 31/08/2026 14:42

But quite clearly if everyone has equal rights, then it will not be a Jewish state for long. Look at Lebanon.

Look at the UK. It is officially defined as a Protestant Christian country.

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:51

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 14:41

Why should the only Jewish state cease to exist. The international pressure would simply be to stop the apartheid and oppression giving everybody equal rights.

In a one state solution Jews would lose the only Jewish state they have.

That is something there is no international pressure for.

BananaPeels · 31/08/2026 14:42

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 14:41

Why should the only Jewish state cease to exist. The international pressure would simply be to stop the apartheid and oppression giving everybody equal rights.

But quite clearly if everyone has equal rights, then it will not be a Jewish state for long. Look at Lebanon.

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 14:41

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:26

What has your reply got to do with my post, which said there is not going to be extreme international pressure on Israel to agree that the only Jewish state should cease to exist.

Why should the only Jewish state cease to exist. The international pressure would simply be to stop the apartheid and oppression giving everybody equal rights.

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:38

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:37

My point about misogyny is challenge your point about "oldest hatred".

I do not think the hatred of Jews is the oldest hatred - other hates will have existed before Jews even existed.

As for targetted hatred against Jews only existing if they were the only people suffering well I'm speechless. That is not an accurate description of the point I made.

I think Sharon's point was very obviously about religion.

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:37

SharonEllis · 31/08/2026 14:23

Misogyny is completely different to antisemitism. Women are not an ethnic category and the dynamics of misogyny are very different to those of ethnic-based persecution. I cant believe I had to type that out.

As for targetted hatred against Jews only existing if they were the only people suffering well I'm speechless.

My point about misogyny is challenge your point about "oldest hatred".

I do not think the hatred of Jews is the oldest hatred - other hates will have existed before Jews even existed.

As for targetted hatred against Jews only existing if they were the only people suffering well I'm speechless. That is not an accurate description of the point I made.

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:35

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:25

If I were Jewish I have no doubt that I would want somewhere like Israel to exist so that I too could flee in time of peril.

At the moment, that comfort is coming at the cost of enormous human tragedy and devastation imposed on civilians who have little or nothing to do with any of it.

If that sits well with the people who want an option in their back pocket, then I am really not sure what to say.

I don't think there is anything to say.

If I were Jewish I have no doubt that I would want somewhere like Israel to exist so that I too could flee in time of peril.

We all want that don't we? I know I would cherish my British passport even if I moved to another country. Especially if I felt hostility towards part of my identity from people in that other country.

It's not just an option in their back pocket or would you say that about any other ethnic/religious group who had a dual passport?

Jewish people around the world are not responsible for what is happening in Gaza, neither are most of the civilians in Israel.

SharonEllis · 31/08/2026 14:27

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:25

If I were Jewish I have no doubt that I would want somewhere like Israel to exist so that I too could flee in time of peril.

At the moment, that comfort is coming at the cost of enormous human tragedy and devastation imposed on civilians who have little or nothing to do with any of it.

If that sits well with the people who want an option in their back pocket, then I am really not sure what to say.

I don't think there is anything to say.

Good.

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:26

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 14:12

What part of the UK is a Protestant Christian country but it doesn't oppress anyone you're not getting. Everyone has equal rights but it is still a Protestant Christian country.

What has your reply got to do with my post, which said there is not going to be extreme international pressure on Israel to agree that the only Jewish state should cease to exist.

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:25

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:16

Yes we are in a constant state of flux but I don't think you are taking on board the fact that Jewish people only have one country that is Jewish.

I've seen several Jewish people on MN (other boards, most don't stay on this Conflict in the Middle East board for long) say that if antisemitism gets any worse in the UK they will move to Israel. It seems a comfort to them that there is one place on earth where they won't have to fear antisemitism.

If I were Jewish I have no doubt that I would want somewhere like Israel to exist so that I too could flee in time of peril.

At the moment, that comfort is coming at the cost of enormous human tragedy and devastation imposed on civilians who have little or nothing to do with any of it.

If that sits well with the people who want an option in their back pocket, then I am really not sure what to say.

I don't think there is anything to say.

SharonEllis · 31/08/2026 14:23

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 13:43

'the oldest hatred'

There is no way that anti semitism is older than misogyny.

I take issue with the claim that Jewish people have suffered more, for longer and in a continuous way, throughout history. This is the point you make.

If it was only Jewish people who suffered in those times then yes, Jews were targeted because of their Jewishness.

But, if other groups also suffered at that same time, then Jews were simply part of something else, something bigger that was going on - like civil war in Russia for example.

The Holocaust was clearly targeting Jews.

Misogyny is completely different to antisemitism. Women are not an ethnic category and the dynamics of misogyny are very different to those of ethnic-based persecution. I cant believe I had to type that out.

As for targetted hatred against Jews only existing if they were the only people suffering well I'm speechless.

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:20

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:13

A - Israel and Iran function in a comparable way? Sure you want to open up that chestnut?

B - usually cases before a court need proof of some kind. For a genocide case they would surely need to have data from the ground. To get that, they need to be allowed in...

The International Court of Justice considering the case of genocide have so much information and evidence to wade through that they don't expect to be able to reach a verdict for several years. It's not a straightforward case whatever you may think.

And I did not say that Israel and Iran function in a comparable way. I'm not defending that Israel don't allow international journalists in, I just don't think that has anything to do with the genocide claim.

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:16

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:10

Which means that Israel - the world's only Jewish state - would be eliminated.

It would not be eliminated.

It would be changed, yes.

As is/was Gaza, West Bank, all the settlements, the Roman Empire, The British Empire, India and Pakistan, Bangladesh, Ireland, England, Scotland. Wales, The US, and on and on. The world over, countries change all the time.

You Tube has some amazing video graphics of maps - we are in a constant state of change.

Yes we are in a constant state of flux but I don't think you are taking on board the fact that Jewish people only have one country that is Jewish.

I've seen several Jewish people on MN (other boards, most don't stay on this Conflict in the Middle East board for long) say that if antisemitism gets any worse in the UK they will move to Israel. It seems a comfort to them that there is one place on earth where they won't have to fear antisemitism.

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:13

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:05

You seem not to be understanding that genocide has to be proven in an international court of law.

Not letting international observers or journalists into Gaza is something you can criticise Israel for but it's nothing to do with genocide. Other countries equally don't allow independent journalists in - Iran for example.

A - Israel and Iran function in a comparable way? Sure you want to open up that chestnut?

B - usually cases before a court need proof of some kind. For a genocide case they would surely need to have data from the ground. To get that, they need to be allowed in...

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 14:12

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 13:53

There is not going to be extreme international pressure on Israel to agree that the only Jewish state should cease to exist.

Edited

What part of the UK is a Protestant Christian country but it doesn't oppress anyone you're not getting. Everyone has equal rights but it is still a Protestant Christian country.

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:10

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 13:47

I'm not putting words into your mouth to make you seem antisemitic.

You said "I still believe the land can be shared with everyone having equal rights" - that is the one state solution.

Which means that Israel - the world's only Jewish state - would be eliminated.

Which means that Israel - the world's only Jewish state - would be eliminated.

It would not be eliminated.

It would be changed, yes.

As is/was Gaza, West Bank, all the settlements, the Roman Empire, The British Empire, India and Pakistan, Bangladesh, Ireland, England, Scotland. Wales, The US, and on and on. The world over, countries change all the time.

You Tube has some amazing video graphics of maps - we are in a constant state of change.

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 14:05

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:00

Israel does not get to correct its own homework surely?

I mean, we can get bogged down on finer points of definitions.

But if Israel does not let international observers or journalists into Gaza, it is hard to accept that there could be honesty in any claims.

You seem not to be understanding that genocide has to be proven in an international court of law.

Not letting international observers or journalists into Gaza is something you can criticise Israel for but it's nothing to do with genocide. Other countries equally don't allow independent journalists in - Iran for example.

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:00

SharonEllis · 31/08/2026 13:28

You seem to be muddling up a lot of issues, but on your fundamental point, no Israel does not have to prove there is no genocide. Genocide has a legal definition. You prove that that threshold has been reached, not that it hasn't. And Israel and many others have indeed pit forward evidence that the threshold has not been reached.

Israel does not get to correct its own homework surely?

I mean, we can get bogged down on finer points of definitions.

But if Israel does not let international observers or journalists into Gaza, it is hard to accept that there could be honesty in any claims.

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 13:53

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 13:47

The only way Israel would ever accept either solution would be extreme international pressure being applied as was done with South Africa. Until that time comes, the Palestinians lives are going to remain wretched, either as a stateless people in their own land or as refugees in another land if Israel does manage to drive them out.

There is not going to be extreme international pressure on Israel to agree that the only Jewish state should cease to exist.

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 13:47

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 13:37

You're now trying to put words into my mouth to make me seem antisemitic. I, personally, don't agree with countries defined by religion, I believe in secularism. However there are about 50 countries defined by religion. Israel is one and the UK is another. The UK is officially a protestant Christian Country but people of all religions live there and have equal rights. Even though they are officially a Protestant Christian country, Protestants only make up 30% of the country.

I'm not putting words into your mouth to make you seem antisemitic.

You said "I still believe the land can be shared with everyone having equal rights" - that is the one state solution.

Which means that Israel - the world's only Jewish state - would be eliminated.

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 13:47

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 13:43

Also factor in the Arab birth-rate being higher than the Jewish one ... can't see a one state solution ever being accepted by Israel.

It's even less likely than the two state solution to ever be adopted.

The only way Israel would ever accept either solution would be extreme international pressure being applied as was done with South Africa. Until that time comes, the Palestinians lives are going to remain wretched, either as a stateless people in their own land or as refugees in another land if Israel does manage to drive them out.

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 13:43

dairydebris · 31/08/2026 13:31

How could the land be shared with everyone having equal rights when the vast majority of Palestinian Arabs prefer a country with Islam as the official state religion, and the majority of Israelis prefer a secular state? Thats 2 distinct voting blocks.

Not to mention the generations of hatred on both sides.

Do you honestly think this doesnt also equal civil war?

Also factor in the Arab birth-rate being higher than the Jewish one ... can't see a one state solution ever being accepted by Israel.

It's even less likely than the two state solution to ever be adopted.

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 13:43

SharonEllis · 31/08/2026 09:57

I don't really understand what you're trying to say. As I said before nobody said Jewish people are the only people to have suffered in history. I think there are special features to antisemitism, not least its longevity 'the oldest hatred' but Im not sure what purpose this discussion serves.

'the oldest hatred'

There is no way that anti semitism is older than misogyny.

I take issue with the claim that Jewish people have suffered more, for longer and in a continuous way, throughout history. This is the point you make.

If it was only Jewish people who suffered in those times then yes, Jews were targeted because of their Jewishness.

But, if other groups also suffered at that same time, then Jews were simply part of something else, something bigger that was going on - like civil war in Russia for example.

The Holocaust was clearly targeting Jews.

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 13:42

dairydebris · 31/08/2026 13:31

How could the land be shared with everyone having equal rights when the vast majority of Palestinian Arabs prefer a country with Islam as the official state religion, and the majority of Israelis prefer a secular state? Thats 2 distinct voting blocks.

Not to mention the generations of hatred on both sides.

Do you honestly think this doesnt also equal civil war?

I don't. The war ended in Lebanon because people were tired of it. When I was last in Lebanon, speaking to Lebanese of different religion, Muslims and Christians, the consensus was they would do anything to avoid going back to war. I believe the younger generation and most of the Palestinians are a younger generation, would welcome a chance for peace and equality. Of course there will be underlying animosity for a while but history shows us that time is a great healer.

Squeezingwildoranges · 31/08/2026 13:37

Twiglets1 · 31/08/2026 13:26

So you believe in one state.

The land that can be shared with everyone having equal rights... what would that land be called? I'm guessing Palestine which means you are in favour of eliminating the world's only Jewish state.

You're now trying to put words into my mouth to make me seem antisemitic. I, personally, don't agree with countries defined by religion, I believe in secularism. However there are about 50 countries defined by religion. Israel is one and the UK is another. The UK is officially a protestant Christian Country but people of all religions live there and have equal rights. Even though they are officially a Protestant Christian country, Protestants only make up 30% of the country.