Israelis should be welcome in Birmingham

Some football fans. Some. We do have facial recognition and all kinds of technology nowadays that enables folk to be identified individually rather than this blanket 'they're a fan they must be thug' ideology. One of the hostages Emily Damari is a fan, is she a hooligan to be banned too?

Can you really not see that for a pro pal MP to submit a petition to ban Jews stinks?

Yes I can see it suits some to cling to the 'but they are violent thugs' story but we all know if the MP talks of genocides, his constituents will do too and that will be the real reason they aren't welcome.

It'll be a wake up call to other MPs and other councils that if you try to get away with this crap people will challenge you and call you out for what it is.

Racism is dramatic, as is hatred based on religion, whomsoever it is directed at. Do you at least agree on that?

For the umpteenth time on this thread, the decision to prevent the “fans” travelling to Aston Villa was not made by the MP but by the police authorities based upon all available information. It is not an example of racism or anti-Semitism but a clear cut, pragmatic decision to ensure safety of the local residents and home fans, some of whom are no doubt Jewish.

Your bias is transparent. If you have not already done so, please listen to yesterday’s Any Answers where the considerable majority of Jewish respondents supported the decision. They were well informed about the “fans” history and obviously not anti-Semitic.

My point was that the people who run the game banned the Polish fans. They were enforcing a ban generally. It wasn’t localised and it was on the basis of those fans’ violent behaviour.

If the Italians are frequently banning away support it sounds as though they’re being even-handed about many clubs and just don’t want the cost and agg of the policing. (Sounds a bit dodgy though. I can see why opponents would be unhappy.)

But the main point is that we don’t know why the Villa decision was taken.

A pp has said the police are experts. Well, ok, let’s say all the people are experts. Did they expertly advise that Maccabi fans are so numerous and violent that the threat from them was too great? Or did they expertly advise that the likelihood of violence from anti-Israel groups was too great? Or maybe both? In the second two cases it would be outrageous to ban Jewish fans because anti-Israel protesters are violent.

Nothing that’s been reported answers that question.

But posters continue to argue that it’s all about Maccabi fans’ violence. There’s nothing to support that. Reference to Amsterdam doesn’t tell us because the authorities there said the violence erupted, at least in part, from antisemitism.

But the reason given for banning the Macabi fans was not because of alleged football hooliganism but because they are Israelis and or Jewish.

The idea that this is all because of football hooliganism is simply to try and hide overt anti semitism.

At least be honest.

No of course not. Is anti-Islamic sentiment in the heads of those subjected to it?

Will you acknowledge that each is as bad as the other?

The whole premise of this thread is flawed. The idea that a group of football supporters with a long track record of violence and hate of the highest order - celebrating the deaths of children, FGS - has been banned because they are Israeli and is therefore anti-Semitic is demonstrably nonsense. Many fan clubs with an history of violence from all over the world have been subject to the same policing decisions.

Many, many people are becoming increasingly fed up with the idea that Israeli automatically=good, that any criticism whatsoever of anyone associated with the country is somehow anti-Semitic. It is chipping away at and watering down the meaning of a historic term that describes a very real problem. Just as anti-Islamic sentiment is a very real problem.

The decision of the police is not anti-Semitic. It is about maintaining public order, nothing more, nothing less, as is the force’s duty and remit.

I can’t understand why anyone without bias can’t see that.

Oh no but hang on, apparently if some black people or some gay people had behaved badly previously then you ban them all en masse it seems.

I'm not quite sure why you are being so dramatic. Jesus H christ indeed.

As I said an MP <these people are voted in, so they do represent folks views> submitted a petition mainly about doing genocides oh but hang on quick add in about isrsali thugs to. So if he says Jews aren't welcome I don't think it's a stretch to believe his constituents agree. Yes I 'have a straight face', I don't tend to post gurning, do you?

But the Muslim community is much bigger than the Jewish community and you must remember lots of us , including me, go about our lives without anyone knowing we're Jewish. If there were millions of us and we were more identifiable, then anti Semitism would be even higher.

I mean I don't wear my star of David in public anymore and I am too scared to tell anyone irl that I'm Jewish. Is this all in my head?

I have no idea of the figures and haven't mentioned Islam or Muslims.

I mean there's over 4 million Muslims in the UK and less than 300k Jews...so there will be more mosques than synagogues. I have no idea if mosques have their own security or need added security measures.

I was asking why you think the Jewish community need extra security? Do you think we're just paranoid?

Proportionally yes there have been.

But it's the truth- all this new found concern about football hooliganism is bollocks.

Imagine if say a Black History month event in Bristol was cancelled because of concerns over racist attacks or a Pride event in Newcastle being cancelled because of concerns over homophobic attacks - there would be uproar and rightly so.

I would be pleased if you would address my previous reply to you, blatant anti-Muslim sentiment on your part, rather than what about?

I don’t know. Have there been more attacks on these institutions than their Islamic counterparts?

At least you’ve the balls to actually say what you mean and not try to dance around it.

So why do Jewish schools and synagogues have such stringent security measures? Everywhere in the UK I mean. Why do we have to keep secret addresses where Jewish events will be held?

The Euro football authorities banned the sale of tickets to Warsaw fans for five future matches and fined the club.

Yes, the question was have polish or Turkish teams been banned - Legia Warsaw got a longer ban from UEFa because of the seriousness of the damage done at Villa park and because it was a repeat offender

The Euro football authorities refused to allow the Napoli game to be moved and it was the Italian authorities that banned the sale of tickets to residents of Frankfurt. (Which would allow fans with a different address to go.)

Has UEFA ever banned ticket sales to Maccabi fans?

And the British authorities haven’t banned Maccabi fans. The club did on the advice of police and a council safety committee. We know that the PM and Home Secretary oppose the ban.

The authorities in Napoli who banned the Frankfurt fans are the same as here - it is not the club who have banned the MTA fans. The Safety advisory Group, who issue the safety cert allowing matches to go ahead, which comprises of local authorities, police, other emergency services and the likes have banned them. The club cannot allow away fans in if they have no safety certificate allowing them to do so.

In Napoli it's their police and local authorities who made the decision to ban the German fans, not the Italian authorities overall. The reason UEFA got involved in that is because EF asked for a neutral venue because banning away fans is becoming very common in matches again Italian teams.

So, you’re basically saying out loud and presumably with a straight face, without actually putting it in to words, on a thread where the premise is it’s wrong to discriminate against all Israeli football fans because of the behaviour of some and that that is anti-Semitic that Israelis are not safe in Birmingham, because Muslims.

Jesus H Christ. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

But that's not the reason given is it?

The independent MP for Birmingham Perry Barr Ayoub Khan, which called for the match to be halted and for a boycott of Israeli teams playing in the UK stated:

“This is not a normal match, and one reason that's given is that the Maccabi fans are arriving in Aston, a diverse and predominantly Muslim community.”

So no reference to alleged football hooliganism.

Of course I can see that many objectors that are rightly now being called out for blatant anti semitism for pushing that Birmingham should be a no go area for people of certain faith or nationality are now back peddling and trying to claim that it's solely due to football hooliganism and nothing to do with them being Jewish or Israeli - but no one with half a mind is buying that BS.

Why would Villa fans be punished for the actions of Tel Aviv fans?

I googled these. It doesn’t look quite so straightforward.

The Euro football authorities banned the sale of tickets to Warsaw fans for five future matches and fined the club.

The Euro football authorities refused to allow the Napoli game to be moved and it was the Italian authorities that banned the sale of tickets to residents of Frankfurt. (Which would allow fans with a different address to go.)

Has UEFA ever banned ticket sales to Maccabi fans?

And the British authorities haven’t banned Maccabi fans. The club did on the advice of police and a council safety committee. We know that the PM and Home Secretary oppose the ban.

Something wrong with what I said? Can I not disagree with the actions of football hooligans but also agree that they are also targets of anti-semitism?

The Maccabi fans were thugs and totally let themselves down. They behaved very badly and screamed "antisemitism" when called out on it.
Much like Netanyahu and certain IDF members.

'On the other hand have Maccabi fans been targets of anti-semitism, yes and it’s disgraceful'

'On the other hand' yes it is indeed disgraceful.

The whole thing is of course a massive problem because of gaza and Israel. Someome with some comon semse in Birmingham should have seen this coming and just said weeks ago no fans on either side to prevent this whole circus.