Israelis should be welcome in Birmingham

Did you even bother to look?

Play behind closed doors. Blanket fairness/unfairness and everyone is safe.

'So if as you say the decision to ban MTA fans from the Aston game was purely due to football hooliganism and not based on nationality, religion or other grounds then why didn't the West Midlands Police statement just say that? And why did a local MP campaign to have them banned because they were Israeli'

Why indeed. There is such desperate sweeping under the carpet of the MPs very shit petition whilst desperately focusing on 'The Hooligans'.

We see you.

Throughout this thread, 1dayatatime, I think I’ve consistently said that this decision was down to risk assessment that would have considered all relevant factors.

Absolutely there isn’t. The situation in the round and the violent track record of the visiting “fans” would all have been taken into consideration during the risk assessment.

The local police has a duty of care to local residents, first and foremost. Some of whom will be Jewish Aston Villa fans who are likely appalled at the violent conduct of this group.
Of course that will have formed part of the decision making process.

Again, no-one in authority has announced that this group has been banned because it is made up of Jewish people. They have cited several factors.

In light of yesterday’s violence, do you now agree that the correct decision has been reached or would you still welcome this group and expect the police and Villa fans to deal with the fallout?

So if as you say the decision to ban MTA fans from the Aston game was purely due to football hooliganism and not based on nationality, religion or other grounds then why didn't the West Midlands Police statement just say that? And why did a local MP campaign to have them banned because they were Israeli.

Look there is no shame in admitting that if 1000 plus Israelis turn up in Birmingham then it's quite likely to kick off because of anger against Israel in the local population because of the recent Gaza war.

It is. It diminishes the description of a very serious and growing problem, in the UK and around the world.
Banning violent thugs of any cohort is not an ism of any kind, it’s the only thing to do.

Your question below, @1dayatatime, would be funny if this wasn’t so serious. It’s akin to “so, what did the romans ever do for us?”
You're basically saying, so apart from evidence of extreme violence from this group, the most recent yesterday, what actual evidence of extreme violence from this group do you have.”

Read what you said again and think about it

”So other than the fact that there was violence at a Tel Aviv game this weekend, that happened after the initial decision and statement was made by WMP, what "evidence" do you have to support the claim that it's purely down to football hooliganism”.

At this point, even though no-one in authority has claimed it was purely down to hooliganism (isn’t that enough, FGS?!) but a consideration of a situation in the round, it pretty obviously is.

Reverse the question. Do you want to allow a group of violent thugs into the UK “because” they are Jewish to make some sort of political point? Substitute Muslim, disabled people, gay people, far-right, far-left, any group of your choice who feels under pressure and discriminated against in the UK right now. Heaven knows, there are plenty to choose from. Makes no sense whatsoever, does it?

of course 🙄

Oh for goodness’ sake OP, give it up. You’re flogging a dead horse. Look at the films from outside of the banned match in Tel Aviv. That level of violence - from any group of people, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindus, Sikh, atheist, whoever - is totally unacceptable to anyone of sound mind. No police force, or group of opposing fans, should be expected to face that when it can be prevented.

There are clearly entirely legitimate reasons for banning this particular group that have nothing whatsoever to do with their ethnicity or religion.
Why can’t you see and acknowledge that? There is no shame in admitting that you were mistaken.

Your dogged ideology is a very good demonstration of why the situation in the ME is nigh on impossible to resolve. People take “sides” - both of which are as bad as the other - dig in and absolutely refuse to talk and reach compromise that would make the lives of millions of people better. It’s medieval tribalism, plain and simple. Look at The horror of the Crusades, the Inquisition hundreds of years ago, the Troubles in recent history, the latter where a few very brave people took a leap of faith and it paid off tenfold. Those religions have evolved and moved on and are relatively peaceful now, with a few notable exceptions in certain countries that still need to be dragged, kicking and screaming into the 21st Century. That same leap of faith must be taken by the warring parties in the ME.

People outside of this situation look on in despair and frustration. Heads need banging together.

The authorities in Birmingham have clearly made the only sensible decision. I hope that the PM now butts out of the argument that he felt forced to enter into because of political pressure and allows the police to do their job.

All the pics I’ve seen are of red shirts.

Oh, were you there?

Well it would be, wouldn’t it? Anything to twist the truth being that BOTH sets of fans engaged in extreme violence.

According to reports it was the other team, Hapoel, who threw smoke grenades and flares which is what the injuries were caused by.

So how does that reinforce the WMP decision?

According to reports out of Israel it was the other team, Hapoel, who threw smoke grenades and flares which is what the injuries were caused by.

It further reinforces their decision, which was made on the back of Amsterdam.

Violence breaks out in a local derby in Israel. There were, apparently, nine arrests. And suddenly the banning of Israeli supporters is all justified?

That ignores the fact that there is a depressing amount of violence around European football. Here’s a round-up from two years ago: https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/25033602/return-hooliganism-european-football/

Yet bans on away fans are rare in England and they include bans put in place by UEFA, but not with this one. UEFA want the Maccabi fans to be able to travel.

So why this ban? None of the reasons given were that Maccabi fans were banned only because of their behaviour.

PPs using the Amsterdam example is particularly revealing. It’s not difficult to find news reports of the sentencing of offenders who attacked Israeli fans and engaged in planned ambushes, hit-and-runs and made antisemitic statements. It’s also reported that some Maccabi fans behaved very badly. But ignoring the violence against them, and its motives, to suggest it was all their own responsibility is very unattractive.

The Tel Aviv derby violence occurred after the decision by the WMP was made and in a statement that did not cite football hooliganism as the reason for banning away fans from attending.

You are using post event information to change the premise of a previous decision.

No, we know that 1000+ MTA fans cannot control themselves. Look at the Derby.

He really has! If the Israel teams are a bunch of hooligans like we saw in the 1980s that deliberately start fights with opposing teams of hooligans then I get it. But because that MP is Muslim and brought in an issue of Gaza which is happening a long way away from here and should not be a factor in policing a football game, he's politicised it and suggested that the Birmingham Muslim population can't control themselves round Jews.

And that is absolutely abhorrent to the majority of normal people in this country and suggests we have a huge enclave of religious bigots living in Birmingham. He has definitely done his "community" (presumably that means his Muslim community) a bad service.

If that was the case then why didn't the West Midlands Police statement just say that? It would have saved them from a lot of political fallout.

Why - because we both know having a 1000 plus Israeli fans turn up in Birmingham is likely to spark violence due to the recent war in Gaza and subsequent anti Israeli sentiment from the local population.

Just be honest...

Because part of the hooliganism is race related.
These specific fans are fuelled by racial hatred. Not just towards Muslims, they chant at THEIR OWN BLACK JEWISH PLAYER
the ban is not because they are Israeli or Jewish, it is due to the specific behaviour of some of them

Aston Villa has a Jewish supporters club, they aren’t banning Jews

the water is being muddied by the subsequent statements by the local MP and I agree he has done his community a great disservice.

'So OK if the MTA fans are "known violent hooligans" why didn't the WMP statement just say that- it would have saved a lot of political fallout if they did'

This.

The MP revealed his true concerns harping on about his anti Israeli stance. Yes it was allegedly a police decision but they'd have had meetings with everyone who had concerns.

Going forward the MP should stfu until he's got his story straight on what everyone's concerns actually are. The blatant backtracking would be amusing if it wasnt such a serious issue.

Hmmm because the violence and hate crimes that occurred in Amsterdam were condemned as anti semitism by the Amsterdam Mayor, Dutch PM and Dutch King.

Or are you suggesting that the Amsterdam Mayor, Dutch PM and Dutch King were wrong and that it had nothing to do with anti semitism and just to do with football hooliganism?

They have been banned on the basis of their previous violence. This happens a lot in football.