Israelis should be welcome in Birmingham

'If someone killed my child do I have the right to murder their entire extended family'

What a weird comparison. Domestic crime is not war. Do you think when the Germans ran amok bombing countries the allies should have identified each individual pilot and only shot them, do you really not understand that in war retaliation is sadly widespread including civilians until the aggressor surrenders?!

You clearly don't hold Hamas responsible for the 7 October deaths or you would accept that Israel had a legitimate right to retaliate and that some people would die in the process. What do you think should have happened in response to 7 October? Regardless of how the war developed, what in the week that followed could Israel 'legitimately' have done?

Yes but what about Hamas’s war crimes which started this war? Do they get a get out clause because they are heroic resistance fighters who did actually target civilians without any attempt to even suggest that Kibbutzim and a peace festival were legitimate military targets?

Why are you only focused on Israel committing war crimes?

Hamas, as the government of Gaza, are responsible for the protection of their own civilians. You will probably say but they’re terrorists they can’t be expected to do that, so were you protesting for civilians to be given safe refuge out of Gaza, if not, why not?

• State Responsibility: International law, including human rights law, firmly establishes that a state bears the primary responsibility for the well-being and protection of all persons within its territory and under its jurisdiction, including its own nationals.

The 69,000 figure you quoted, which comes from a terrorist organisation, include a large amount of combatants, at least half, so you do also include them being killed as a war crime?

Do you class any war being fought as ‘collective punishment’ of civilians or just this one?

What international laws can you evidence that Israel have actually broken btw?

Genocide? In what genocide has the release of the opposing sides civilian hostages been negotiated in return for thousands of prisoners, many convicted terrorists who murdered civilians, as a means to a ceasefire? In what genocide has neighbouring countries refused to allow the civilian population to flee to safety? In what genocide has the civilian population increased during the genocide?

Starvation/Famine - while new restaurants open? How many verified deaths have been starvation related in civilians without underlying medical conditions, which can also cause malnutrition, so far? There should have been thousands a week in a population of 2 million.

Targeting civilian infrastructure for no military goal? It is been documented long before this war that Hamas used civilian infrastructure as bases and proven they were using civilian infrastructure during this war. It’s not that Israel have just invented this.

This breaking of international law has been thrown about since the beginning of this war. I have yet to see firm evidence. Of course in war time, mistakes will be made, more so in densely populated urban warfare like this where combatants are embedded in the very fabric of society.

Gaza is governed by terrorists, they were elected as its government and have the support of a large proportion of the population, so it’s not hard to join the dots is it?

Speak of the devil

The terrorist was not hiding inside the synagogue so why would it need to be bombed? We are also not currently at war within own country as far as I’m aware.

So again, not a very relevant answer hypothesis.

From a ruling of Tokyo district court

The Court held that the dropping of atomic bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima were violations of the laws and customs of war, because the attacks did not distinguish between military and civilian targets and inflicted unnecessary suffering. The Court ruled that the bombings, as an indiscriminate bombardment on undefended cities were unlawful acts.

I am glad the world is not filled solely by right wing sociopaths. It is not irrational or emotional to want international law to be respected and abided by. International Law was set up for a reason

Well firstly it's an unfair reality of war that only the losing side tends to get prosecuted for war crimes.

But I have always thought that the nuclear bomb attacks on Japan are a really interesting example of the difference between left wing politics which I see as being driven by emotion and the heart and right wing politics being driven by reality and the head.

So killing nearly 200k Japanese in Hiroshima and Nagasaki from an emotional perspective is truly awful and a terrible thing that someone should be punished for.

But from a right wing reality perspective I can see how after 50k American casualties from just invading the small island of Okinawa that facing the prospect of having hundreds of thousands of US casualties plus hundreds of thousands of Japanese casualties from an invasion of mainland Japan that actually the shock and awe of the nuclear bonds meant that hundreds of thousands of lives were saved than if they had not been used.

So from a left wing perspective it's how can you justify the 200k deaths of Japanese women, children and babies - you must be evil. And from a right wing perspective it's so you would rather have had upwards of a million dead Americans and Japanese instead- you must be stupid.

It's heart versus head.

Do you not?

I do think the Us dropping bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki is an unpunished war crime

So Japan killed 2,400 Million S citizens at Pearl Harbour (double the number killed in October 2023).

In the ensuing war against Japan the US killed 2.4 to 3 million Japanese including by starvation and including 100k killed in one air raid on Tokyo.

Do you think that the actions of the US were wrong and or disproportionate, if so what in your opinion would have been the correct or proportionate course of action.

And lastly after October 2023 what do you think would have been the correct or proportionate course of action by Israel?

The police shot one civilian, which could be an accident, if they had decided to bomb the synagogue knowing there were civilians including children inside and had killed 8 or 9 civilians there would rightfully be public outrage

If someone killed my child do I have the right to murder their entire extended family? Can I starve them to death? Aunts, grandparents etc we can trade hypotheticals all day, we won’t agree, I think Israel’s response has been a collective, intentionally cruel and disproportionate punishment of a trapped civilian population you think Israel”s actions including war crimes are always excusable with “but Hamas”

So at the recent anti semetic attack at the synagogue in Manchester two innocent people were killed and one terrorist killed.

One innocent person was killed by the terrorist- I think we can all agree that he was responsible for this death.

One innocent person was killed by the armed police who when shooting the terrorist trying to break into the synagogue, bullets went through the door and killed the innocent person.

So in your opinion a) are the police responsible for killing the second innocent person and b) if so are the actions of police just as bad as the actions of the terrorist ?

I hold Hamas responsible for the 1,200 people they killed on October 7th, I hold Israel responsible for the 69,000 people they have killed since

Obviously under international law some people are killed lawfully. Obviously I would not know the exact number. Obviously to say Israel is 'responsible' for every casualty is factually nonsense. As ever you absolve Hamas of all responsibility when, objectively, regardless of what side you are on, they bear responsibility for some peolle killed by Israel.

The average civilian to combatant death ratio in armed conflict recorded by the UN was 9:1 in 2022.

In your hypothetical scenario, that would have meant 1530 civilians killed for 170 terrorists.

Obviously that would not have happened anyway as the IDF have taken unprecedented steps to avoid civilian casualties. If the boot was on the other foot and Hamas had access to IDF resources, they would have wiped the whole lot out in a heartbeat.

The IDF also do not hide under civilian infrastructure so as to deliberately use civilians as human shields so it’s an irrelevant hypothesis.

https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm

www.ynetnews.com/opinions-analysis/article/r1moukwhr#

?

Sorry, what? I'm not into hypothetical scenarios really.

I'll give you a real one though, 'me and my pals have slaughtered hundreds, abducted and tortured hundreds. We've got ourselves and all our weapons hidden in tunnels below civilian areas. Am I unreasonable to be surprised that to get at me and my fellow murderers civilians are harmed?'

@Gloriia there is a large Israeli wedding happening 830 guests including children, grannies, aunties etc a lovely celebration there are 170 terrorists in the basement of the hotel, they are not a threat to the guests they are hiding but may at some unspecified time in the future launch an attack somewhere, but not on the guests, am I entitled to drop a bomb on the wedding that day killing all the 830 guests in order to kill the terrorists or should I try to target terrorists on an occasion when I can capture/ kill then without wiping out the 830 Israeli guests and injuring the 200 Israeli hotel staff who are prepping in the kitchen and dining room?

It was a war. Combatants/terrorists set up shop in civilian areas.

Racist? Who on earth is racist and do c&p any racist comments. What a thing to say, we condemn murderers and that is racist? Ive heard it all now.

Please enlighten how many of the 20,000 children did Israel kill lawfully?

Yes @Gloriia i do care, I don’t believe in extra judicial killing and am capable of caring about two different populations, I am not a racist unlike many posters on here

Thats simply untrue under international law.

Stay in denial @everexpanding hamas committed an atrocity, they knew exactly what would happen and they placed themselves among the civilians thus causing more deaths. They are responsible.

Do you know they're murdering their own people, shooting them in cold blood. Don't you care?