Pro-Israel - I don't understand

From what I understand, many of the people in the Kibbutz attacked on October 7th were actively helping Gazans…

Israel has been clear from the beginning? Who was it then who started the current war?
And why did Israel withdraw from Gaza 20 years ago if all they ever wanted was to wipe them out?

Jesus. How can anyone believe this. Go and read up about the Nazis and the Holocaust and then you will see what nonsense you are talking.

If the Nazis had all the Jews gathered in one place, with all the arms power Israel has, what do you think would have happened? If all the Jews were in a space the size of Gaza, what do you think would have happened? They'd have killed them all. Nazis murdered 80% of all the Jews in Europe, that's about 40% of all the Jews in the world at that time. 10% of Gazans have been killed. And its only that high because Hamas has refused to shelter its citizens in its tunnels ( which it could do as Israel gives advance warning of its strikes), and its only that low because Israel gives warning of its strikes so Gazans can leave before bombing, gave safe passage for citizens to return after the first ceasefire. Israel has also been feeding the population and undertaken a polio vaccination programme for children.

And of course none of these attacks would have happened if Hamas had not broken the ceasefire that existed prior to October 7th, and it could have all concluded a lot sooner if they returned the hostages.

Yes, I agree, I was thinking "literal Nazi ideology" was inappropriate, on what has, for the most part, been a reasoned and interesting discussion.

I'm not sure why you sing things were getting better considering that even before the 7/10 attack it was the most deadly year for Palestinians in a long while. Israel had stepped up their attacks, and Netenyahu was presenting his ideas for a Israel having taken over West Bank and Gaza.

What a terrible opinion to give. Nazi ideology? Awful phrasing and so deliberately provocative to Jewish communities. Shameful.

Absolutely this. Hamas do not want peace.

This is a religious-political Islamist movement for them.

If need it screenshotting let me know.

What is concerned i g OP is that you've acknowledged you're very limited understanding of the politico-religious history of the region yet call/called yourself pro one side abd then another. Why? Two years ago, my understanding was also very limited. I have spent hours and hours reading 100s of documents, books, watching documentaries and even watching films. I consider myself now quite knowledgeable although still nowhere as knowledgeable as some posters, and I still feel it is not enough to be in a position to believe I one side over the other. The more I read and the more I can see how there is no right or wrong, just a successions of events that have just made relations worse every decades.

If you’d like to truly understand I can provide you with a history lesson right here.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/islamists-are-the-true-cry-bullies/

It also tends to get lost that (I understand) life in Gaza, and between Gaza and Israel was, in 2023, improving. Many people from Gaza were working in Israel, getting medical care in Israel etc. Things looked set to get better. Saudi was going to recognise Israel and work on the 2 state solution looked possible.

This is precisely why Hamas attacked

And yet somehow, despite not being able to get basics like chocolate and paper, according to you, Hamas managed to get into Gaza all the arms and rockets and materials to build 450 miles of tunnels. Looks like Hamas was not bothered about its citizens having paper or chocolate either then 🙄.

And as I said upthread, Hamas had a choice to build up a peaceful state and build trust and relationships with Israel, and it chose instead to do the opposite and continue conflict. At the cost not only of Israeli citizens, but also of its own.

Israel protects their civilians, Hamas don’t.

Not quite sure what your point it here, but if you are trying to say only 15 Israelis have been killed against the higher death toll in Gaza, then you can only make this case if you ignore the actions of Hamas over that time.

Within a year of October 7th 2023, 27000 rockets had been fired into Israel. The low death roll from that is because Israel has invested in the defence of its citizens through the Iron Dome. Its not because Hamas have not tried to kill tens of thousands of Israelis. They'd be delighted to slaughter all of them.

Hamas, on the other hand, has invested in war with Israel at the expense of its citizens. Not even expense, it is very clearly for anyone who has eyes to see, that Hamas is deliberately using the deaths of its citizens in its war propaganda. They have not invested in defences for their citizens. The tunnels they built in preparation for their planned war with Israel that they provoked on Oct 7th, could have been used to defend their citizens, and lead to a much, much lower death toll but they didn't, and don't to this day, want to do that. That would be counter to their aims.

So no, this is not a case of poor, weak victim Hamas being nice and hardly killing any Jews, whereas nasty Israel is killing loads of Gazans. Its a story of genuinely genocidal Hamas wanting to murder as many Jews as it can and to sacrifice its own citizens to do so.

You weren’t talking about ratios in your pp though, you said “Israel is killing civilians and not soldiers because Gaza is not a nation state and doesn’t have a military like a nation state would have”, so it sounded like since there’s no military in Gaza everyone is a civilian.
As for the ratio, it doesn’t help that the Gaza Ministry of Health isn’t distinguishing between combatant and civilian deaths.
But why on earth would Israel target only civilians and not Hamas?

Why should America fund it? Hamas could easily have afforded it. Do you have any idea how rich they are? They've just spent all the $$$$$ on efforts to destroy Israel. Because they are right-wing fundamentalist Islamic terrorists.

Yes, I know, but why didn't Egypt negotiate with Israel to have goods sent in, checked at the Rafah Gate?
I suspect too difficult for all involved, and I know the Egyptians want to keep the Palestinians at arms' length, so to speak

Thank you.

I wish everyone could read your post which explains things from a humane and personal viewpoint.
I found David Baddiel’s book Jews Don’t Count interesting too.

The rise in anti Semitism in our hitherto tolerant country chills my Anglo Saxon blood to the bone.

Ah, that well-know impartial observer, the UN, and its UNRWA scandal.

I'm interested though what you think Gazans version of the iron Dome would be made of, given that chocolate passata and paper were considered too dangerous for the Gazans to possess

I'm afraid you may have to revise your view as them as poverty-stricken and deprived. For decades, $$$$$$$ billions have been given to them in international aid, not to mention sponsorship by the obscene wealth of oil-rich countries such as Qatar.

Despite their lack of chocolate and pasta, the poor dears somehow managed to build this
https://www.reuters.com/graphics/ISRAEL-PALESTINIANS/GAZA-TUNNELS/gkvldmzorvb/

@Beachtastic

Yes only wish America would fund one for Gaza like it does for Israel

Because Israel imposed the same blockade via things coming in that route. Or more precisely didn't allow the Rafah crossing to be for goods, in general, and what there was had to be checked by Israel.

Do you know about the Iron Dome?