Pro-Israel - I don't understand

That's ok, I think it's very positive that you're trying to unpick this, whatever your conclusion may be. As I said (qv) the worst aspect is the woeful ignorance of the basic facts by some people. These are human lives, and a complex solution cannot be achieved peacefully if it's just about slogans.

I have similar thoughts to you OP, and it’s not ‘faux naivety’, it’s similar to me thinking ‘I just cannot get how people believe men can become women’. Of course I have read where they are coming from and could discuss the reasons that ‘the other side’ believe what they do - but I can’t understand how that was their conclusion, when seeing the same evidence I see. If that makes sense. And really not trying to start a trans bunfight nested in another bunfight - just articulating the ‘why do so many people think this?’ confusion that I think OP is expressing.

Key GCSE texts are often really helpful as starters: "The Arab Israeli Conflict" Tony McAleavy (Cambridge University Press) or the Hodder Education "Conflict in the Middle East".
That could lead you on to further reading with different authors about different aspects.
It's also geo- political: a good knowledge of borders, accords and agreements is useful.
There have been many.

Oh god. Another one

I couldn't agree more. That stood a real chance, and when I think about where we are now, it's very frustrating.

@LeticiaMorales I find the breakdown of the peace accords so upsetting. To think where we could be if that willingness to broker peace had prevailed.

"poking the bear" too true, @YorkshireGoldDrinker . It's become very polarised as a debate, and simplified so much so that very basic facts are either misinterpreted or ignored.
Martin Gilbert is a good historian, so you could start with that, or Edward Said, Sebag Montefiore et al. I found Jimmy Carter's book interesting - many world leaders have, to their credit, attempted to broker peace.
You may remember the peace accords with Begin and Sadat. Sadly, both men were assassinated. It certainly didn't start in 2023.

I’d be really grateful for a good background/explainer too. Am aware of some of it, but not the detail and been trying to take a nuanced approach that distinguishes the women and children of Gaza from Hamas and also recognises that Netanyahu’s initial justified response to an atrocious act of war seems to have spilled into the disproportionate response territory - am not sure if I am trying to ‘both sides’ a war where I’m supposed [according to the media and demos in London] to fall firmly on one side.

Until a few years ago, I felt for the Palestinians but also felt the international community - the UN and the UK - had all played a part in the way it had been established and for letting it fester without intervening and trying to remedy the enormous fuck up we (UK et al) had made back in 1947. Ie, this is a war of our making too. But I am really NOT clear on the facts and the timeline.

I get it, OP. I understand what you're saying. I've taken the time to read your OP and there are points I disagree with but have not dismissed because that's just not what I do.

Every perspective is worthy, so I say bring it. (That sounded less goady in my head!)

I'm neither pro-Israel nor pro-Palestine. I'm pro-England as that is my country. I do have some thoughts, but as you say, MN is pretty vicious as of late and I'm not going to poke the bear.

There was a cease fire. No major attacks from either side.
My Israeli friend says that many Palestinians worked daily in Israel e.g. if you employed a firm of builders you could choose either all Israeli or one that employed legally-working Palestinians. Because she knew how poor Palestinians are, she always chose them.
Now, because you are employing people to work in your home and they can gain knowledge of your home's layout, of where your panic room is and what the codes are, of your family and who's there and who's out, she would never do that again.
The attacks on the kibbutz were by people who had been employed by the families.

It's worthwhile looking beyond the soundbites as well. I saw a thread on here where someone claimed that Israel had ruled Gaza "since 1948". That's not true, it was under Egyptian military rule 1948-1967. I'm not making a value judgment here, just noting one of the many errors of fact which occur.

It isn't black and white and Oct 7th didn't happen out of nowhere. That's the first point. Trying to understand it via a MN thread is unlikely.

Some people don't think the state of Israel should ever have been created in 1948. I don't know what I think about that one. It was pretty awful for the Palestinians living there at the time (they have a word for it - the 'naqba') and to some, appeared to be two wrongs trying to make a right. What happened during the Holocaust clearly influenced what happened.

In the intervening decades, there has been Western support for Israel, even amidst illegal settlements cropping up in occupied territories which further muddies the water. The Western support comes from the fact that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and generally lives by the values most Western countries espouse.

It's so complicated that it's almost impossible to know where to begin. Of course, some don't think it's complicated at all - they think Israel shouldn't exist ('from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free'). But of course, the reality is, it's not that straightforward,

I don’t believe Israel has the right to be there in the first place. The entire idea was colonialist and racist and it has never worked. The conflict has been ongoing since 1948. I think Hamas are a murderous death cult and it is difficult to see any resolution from this point onwards.

@plsexplaintome I have quite the library (I used to teach it!) so the list would be a bit long!
I would advise looking at authors who attempt to analyse without taking a particular side. Even then, accounts vary and evidence is conflicting.
Start with something like Amazon for a basic starter. I'll have a look and get back to you on the best overview. 👍

There are obviously different points of view. Some people take the view you describe, others take the view that by and large Israel hasn’t behaved badly, that historically they have been attempting to coexist with the Palestinians but have been forced to do things like blockade Gaza because of the attacks both directly from Hamas and also from other countries (Iran).

Yes

You cannot really boil it down that much. Seriously, start some reading, the whole region has been embroiled in conflict for many, many years.
It will take strong, just leadership and considerable compromise to achieve peace.

"I'm not looking for an argument"
Well, you've picked the wrong topic, because this gets very heated.
The best thing to do is to start some reading around it, and you'll realise how complex it is. Without referring to either side, things get simplified too much. Soundbites and slogans are chanted and turned into placards, or stickers or badges, but it's worthwhile actually looking at the history.

It’s really easy to google this if you are genuinely interested, but what it probably boils down to is that people start from a different premise. You start from the premise that Palestinians are victims and oppressed. Many pro-Israel people start from the premise that Palestinians and other Arab nations have often been the aggressors, with the Israelis acting in self defence.

I guess you could describe my position as pro Israel.

what I think is a bit more nuanced.

I consider Israel and Palestine pretty much both states. The October 7th attacks if done to any other nation could easily have been considered an act of war.

ok, war wasn’t declared but people were shot and raped in their homes and at a music festival.

so Palestine (or rather the Gaza Strip because as far as I’m aware the West Bank is PLO and wasn’t involved) committed an act of war.

so Israel took that as a declaration of war and is waging war.

now there’s an argument to be made about proportionate use of force (eg Coventry bombings, Dresden bombings, the US dropped the atom bomb on Japan even though Japan’s original pearl harbour attack wasn’t anywhere near that scale) but if you choose to provoke a war then it’s not possible to control how the other side reacts.

I don’t think how Israel treated Palestinians before Oct 7th was ok, but equally I see many countries where ethnic or gender or religious groups are treated far far worse (women in Afghanistan, the Yazidi, etc) and actions come with consequences.

ISIS tried to conquer and hold territory and a coalition of the US plus various other states basically completely broke them as a “state”. Hamas (who as far as I can tell are basically the same as ISIS) currently hold the Gaza Strip and honestly if one of the results of this is that they are broken I’ll be happy about that.