Free Palestine

I think op just started the thread for the title, they forgot to add 'from hamas' though.

Everyone seems to forget that Egypt isn’t letting the people through either. The 57 Muslim countries aren’t exactly falling over themselves to help.

At the end of the day, Jews were significantly worse off before Israel became a state than after. For thousands of years we have been persecuted and murdered and hated. The Israelis (who aren’t partying and feasting or whatever. They’re running to bomb shelters and sending their young adults off to a war zone) are the front line to protect every single Jewish person worldwide. If they all march off into the sea as per that horrific chant I hear outside my office weekly, then that? Hamas and the Taliban and whoever owns the entire region, Jews have no safety net again and we all know where that goes.

I would love to think there’s an option besides this horror show but I’m struggling to see what that would even look like. Hamas wants us all dead. How do you negotiate with that? It seems inherently impossible.

@PurpleThistle7 "I suppose it might be useful to include ‘why’ the Jews kept leaving their birthplaces to show up somewhere else."

Agreed. I have no Jewish blood (at least not to my knowledge) but the centuries of persecution and the reasons behind Israel are conveniently "forgotten". My father was one of the first British medics to arrive at Bergen-Belsen. If indeed he and those with him needed affirmation of the need for Israel, that was it.

I always find it strange that my grandparent who fled nazi persecution is described as a coloniser

Exactly. 57 Muslim countries. One Jewish country which is the size of Wales and has to defend itself constantly to simply exist. Jewish populations ethnically cleansed from the Middle East and North Africa over time so that most of those countries have tiny Jewish populations now or none at all. But colonisers?! Yeah right

Your 'interpretation of history' started with the nonsense that Family A 'lost' the house (whoops!) & ended with the travesty of history that was your summary of the 7 October atrocity.

I don't know who exactly you mean by "you all" but again - I never said or implied that the jews fleeing Germany shouldn't have gone to Palestine. I simply said that they DID, and it exacerbated the ethno-political tensions that already existed there between Zionists (yes, that word) and the Arab population.

It would be ridiculous to claim that judgments about the justification or not of large scale political movements (particularly ones like Zionism that took place over a century with different groups and individuals acting under different circumstances) can be applied simply and automatically to judgment of the actions of specific individuals.

Also please remember to never refer to Jews - please use the code word of Zionist (which in reality just means Jewish people who believe in the existence of the state of Israel) but if you use the word "Zionist" then you can usually get away with anti semitism without being called out on it.

WTF? The OP wanted to understand the history so I outlined it, using both words where they were appropriate, eg Ottoman Palestine had a small jewish minority", whereas mandate Palestine experienced considerable violence between zionists and the indigenous population. The word Zionist is relevant there because the perception that those people were newly arrived with a different culture, a separatist agenda rejecting assimilation with the native population and preferential treatment by the British authorities was at the root of the violence. The violence was not breaking out between indigenous Arabs and indigenous jews.

At the time Zionism arose, in the 19th century (and well into the 20th, I think) the majority of jews were opposed to it. So when describing events of that period, how can you pretend that the two words mean the same thing, and the one is only and excuse to be "antisemitic"?

Zionism was A Thing, get over it. It's still A Thing when Israeli politicians talk openly about plans for a Greater Israel beyond its current borders - A Thing that has a different meaning from "jewishness", which says nothing about an individual's relationship to the state of Israel.

Maybe the truth hurts, but I can't help you with that.

It's also worth noting that after Jews moved to what is now Israel and developed modern land management and infrastructure lots of Arabs from surrounding countries moved to Israel for a better quality of life. Jews managed to wipe out malaria from the area and clean up acres of unusable swampland and marshes and make it productive

After 1948 these Arabs then falsely claimed their families had lived there for thousands of years and had their land stolen from them

It explains why the most common surname in Gaza translates into English as 'the Egyptian' because in Arabic tribes they're named after where they come from

That is your interpretation of history. Mine is different.

Ps: it's not just Gaza that is trapped right now. Israel have closed the only entrance/exit to the west bank that didn't go through Israel, because they control door for as well. So that entire population is being held captive right now as they aren't allowed an airport etc.

👏👏👏

Yes, its a ludicrous, warped idea. The fairy tale above should be deleted in utter shame.

I always find it strange that my grandparent who fled nazi persecution is described as a coloniser.

I mean, what should he have done to gain the approval of you all? Gone to the UK/US/Holland/China? You all know there were quotas. He was lucky to somehow get permission to go to Palestine.

Stayed in Germany and died? Well, worth it for some I suppose to get the approval of the non-Jews of the world. But you know what? I would rather have your hatred and disapproval and be around.

Also, Jordan was created as a Palestinian state but this is conveniently forgotten.

Excellent rules there, thank you.

And very glad you remembered to remind us never to mention any atrocities anywhere else. They are on the news occasionally you see, so that box is ticked. Phew!

Oooh - I haven't seen one of these "excuse my ignorance " or "I dont know much about politics/ current affairs " etc but could someone please explain to me why [insert some controversial statement eg why are there children being blown apart in Gaza].

All answers must blame Israel entirely , absolve Hamas of any guilt and with extra buzzword points for including the words genocide, apartheid, fascists, Nazis, concentration camps, carpet bombing etc.

Also please remember to never refer to Jews - please use the code word of Zionist (which in reality just means Jewish people who believe in the existence of the state of Israel) but if you use the word "Zionist" then you can usually get away with anti semitism without being called out on it.

Lastly there is no point posting anything about atrocities in Sudan, genocide of Uighur in China or forced expulsion of Afghan refugees from Pakistan because they are simply not trending on social media- but just blame it on the social media algorithms not you.

Good luck posting and I hope these guidelines help.

And that 👆 @mommyandmore is why its foolish to ask mumsnet.

A long time ago Family A owned a house. They lost the house and like most old properties the house changed ownership many times. After many hundreds of generations Family B had the house and it had been in their family for a long time, but for complicated reasons family c were actually on charge, a bit like landlords. Sometimes a spare room was rented to someone from the original family a.

Family A wanted to return to their home that had been theirs a very very long time ago, and because they'd had an awful time being treated badly elsewhere, family C said ok. They suggested family b give most of their house to family a, but they could still live in the top floor. Family B go 'that's not fair, you can't just take our house'. They try to get back more of their house but lose and end up with 2 unconnected attic rooms, which they can't enter or leave without family A's approval. Some people say it's their fault because they should have accepted losing the downstairs of their house.

The situation persists and new generations of the families come, but B is still stuck in those rooms. Whilst family A feast and go on great holidays, they stay stuck in those rooms. They try to build a staircase out of the window and family A knock out down.

Every now and then members of family A beat up members of family b, and take them off. Every now and then some members of family get angry and attack family a. They try throwing explosives out of the window to where family a like to eat. The kids in both families are angry at eachother.

The kids aren't allowed paper, or crayons, or chocolate. Everything they eat or drink or do is at the mercy of family a.

One day a few of family b storm out and torture and kill a few of family a, and take some back to their attic rooms as hostages. Family a cut off electricity, food and water and kill many of family b. When they are injured they refuse then to go to hospital. They continue to wreak their revenge daily for 2 years until some of the children are dying of starvation. Just downstairs they continue to feast.

The world focuses on what some from family b did on that awful day rather than looking at the situation as a whole.

It was always the Jews' homeland. There have been Jews there continuously even if not in huge numbers and the Jewish diaspora was always recognised as a diaspora - ie it originated in Israel and Israel remained central to religion & culture.

I don't have time to unpick some of what has been written @mommyandmore but its outrageously biased.

Do read this, its written by a serious historian

The Decolonization Narrative Is Dangerous and False - The Atlantic https://share.google/ocxI3zkFDsqJ4zaFj

I didn't say that the Holocaust necessarily justified the creation of Israel in itself, I said that the Holocaust is why survivors (not merely 'refugees') from the concentrations camps fled to 'Israel' rather than going back to the country where they were rounded up for extermination.

And I pointed out too, that the Holocaust was the Final solution to the Jewish Question. I suggested googling 'Jews expelled from...' to see the number of countries that had banned Jews at some point, including our own. That's why the Holocaust was meant as the final solution to what was considered a long, long term problem. Jews weren't ever going to feel safe in any country because of that long history of discrimination, expulsion and murder. They wanted their own country.

At the same time, there's something profoundly racist about the fact that western countries' solution to the problem was not to sort it out within their own domain, but to impose it upon some powerless brown people instead.

This is a silly argument though. Jews wanted to live in the historic site of Israel. They were, as you detailed, moving there, buying land and property there, wanting a country there long before the Holocaust. How could we sort out 'Jews wanting to live in Israel' in our own domain?
And it wasn't a random place, was it? You, as an atheist, might consider the fact that their God promised it to them is irrelevant, but they don't. It was their homeland. It contains their holy sites. It matters to them.

So two different groups of people wanting to live on the same land = Partition. Like I said, they did it with the creation of Pakistan. They partitioned Ireland. It's not a solution to a problem that was unique to Israel. It wasn't Europe simply looking for a place to offload their Jews and creating a random country plucked out of thin air in which to dump them.

And let's face it, some would like to pretend that Israel was merely populated by European Jews, but around half of them came from the surrounding Arab countries which emptied of Jews in the years following the creation of Israel. Antisemitism and Jewish persecution wasn't restricted to Europe.

It's very complicated, OP, as you'll have already seen. I wouldn't bother getting caught up in all the history tbh. It's very involved and the long and the short of it is that neither side can agree how to divide up the territory. Israel exists. There is no Palestinian state as such, but many people would like there to be one. Battle has raged between Israel and the Palestinians for decades because of an inability to agree borders. This has resulted in ongoing attacks from the Palestinians against Israel and incursions by Israeli settlers into Palestinian territory. Various other Arab states have become involved in the conflict over the years, either directly or by supporting Palestinian terrorists. Western countries have also been involved in aiding Israel and trying to broker peace.

There are extremists on both sides. Israel is a democracy but it has become more hardline over time and there are now extremists in coalition with the government. Palestinian culture is not western and is hard for westerners to understand, but there is extreme Islamism, including a desire for martyrdom above compromise and deep anti-Semitism.

In the West, 'Free Palestine' has become a catchphrase of the hard left. It is not always clear what people mean when they say it - sometimes it means, 'I wish the Palestinians could be happy and have a free country of their own'. Sometimes it means 'I want Israel wiped off the map and the Palestinians to have the whole of Israel and Palestine'. Some it means, 'I want Israelis and Palestinians to share the whole territory in a new single state'. For complicated reasons, Palestine has been a fashionable leftist cause for decades. It gets a disproportionate amount of attention from leftists, who in more recent years have been joined in their anti-Israel views by Islamists in the UK.

There's a board set up for this OP. Why don't you have a look there.

Well indeed. I started my original summary from the late 19th century and only just touched on the Holocaust. The post above was in answer to @noblegiraffe

@dropoutin It’s not the Holocaust that begins this story. You could say it begun with the Russian Jews making their way to Israel in the 1800s. There was a huge Zionist movement then as they weren’t even considered citizens in Russia and were being treated horribly. Or you could say it begun in the 1400s when Jews were expelled from Spain. Or or or. The Holocaust is one thing, not the whole picture.

@noblegiraffe

There's much that's reasonable in your post. Your comparison with Pakistan is certainly thought provoking.

However, with respect, I think you're reading some things into my chronology that aren't there and that I didn't mean. This may be because my "tone" was inappropriately brusque or informal, out of a combination of trying to summarise so much into a short precis and not treating monumental factors like the Holocaust with the gravitas they deserve, in which case I apologise.

As a PP describes Jews had been expelled from almost everywhere at one time or another. You're suggesting that they should try to make their home somewhere that they had been expelled from previously, and could be expelled from again. Or worse.

Hitler hated the Jews. He came up with the Final Solution to the Jewish Question, which was the industrial extermination of all Jews. They were rounded up from what you would like to consider their 'homelands', put on trains to extermination camps and murdered in their millions. That was the Final Solution to the fact that Jews were not wanted, and not seen as human.

And you wanted the camp survivors to go back to the countries they had been rounded up in for extermination? That those were their 'homelands'? That their fleeing to a place of potential safety was 'exacerbating a situation in the Middle East' where they weren't wanted. Where were they wanted?

I never suggested anything about where they should have made their home. I never said anything about "wanting them to go back" anywhere. I never even said that they shouldn't have gone to live in Palestine. I simply said that that is what happened, and that the British couldn't come up with a political solution to it that they were willing to take responsibility for. I was attempting to simply describe the facts of what happened, rather than one or other interpretation of what should have happened, as that's what the OP seemed to want.

As for my views on those issues:

Zionism long predates the Holocaust, and the idea of partition predates it too, so I don't think we can really use the Holocaust as justification for it. If you think it was justified then you must have a reason why it was justified before WW2, when it was first mooted. It probably wouldn't have come up as the answer to what to do with the Holocaust survivors if the impulse and political direction towards it was not already established.

I certainly get that it's easy to look back now and imagine a different path for Palestine that doesn't involve the creation of Israel, but that it was a very different proposition when dealing with the recent, unprecedented horror of the Holocaust. I wouldn't have wanted to be the one to tell the concentration camp survivors "Oh my God that was terrible, but the solution isn't to take some of someone else's country and make it yours". I understand why the international community didn't feel able to do that.

At the same time, there's something profoundly racist about the fact that western countries' solution to the problem was not to sort it out within their own domain, but to impose it upon some powerless brown people instead.

The fact that jews were systematically and horribly exterminated by the Nazis doesn't mean that jews were unable to live safely in any non-jewish-majority country in the west, as many now do.

And Hitler, as Ken Livingstone famously and factually pointed out to his cost, was an enthusiastic Zionist.

What you also don't seem to be getting is that creating countries by drawing lines on a map was hardly unusual back in those days.

"Britain considered how to deal with this violence and came up with the idea of partitioning Palestine into two countries, one jewish and one Arab muslim."

They created Pakistan as a Muslim country in 1947, partitioning India to do so. Millions were displaced and killed as a result.

Going back to your original post, you said "At the end of WW2, the situation was exacerbated by thousands of refugees from the Nazi concentration camps arriving in Palestine. Britain couldn't come up with a satisfactory solution so said "bugger this, we've had enough", announced the mandate would be ending and left it for the UN to sort out."

You say that you are trying to be neutral but honestly, your tone describing this is horrendous.

As a PP describes Jews had been expelled from almost everywhere at one time or another. You're suggesting that they should try to make their home somewhere that they had been expelled from previously, and could be expelled from again. Or worse.

Hitler hated the Jews. He came up with the Final Solution to the Jewish Question, which was the industrial extermination of all Jews. They were rounded up from what you would like to consider their 'homelands', put on trains to extermination camps and murdered in their millions. That was the Final Solution to the fact that Jews were not wanted, and not seen as human.

And you wanted the camp survivors to go back to the countries they had been rounded up in for extermination? That those were their 'homelands'? That their fleeing to a place of potential safety was 'exacerbating a situation in the Middle East' where they weren't wanted. Where were they wanted?

What is your answer to 'What is the Final Solution to the question of what to do with Jews who have been hounded across the globe and a serious attempt made to eliminate them?

In that scenario, giving them a country where they can go and rule themselves after the horrors of the Holocaust doesn't seem that outrageous. And other countries were being created at the time - like I said Pakistan, in 1947, as a specifically Muslim county. Jordan was only created as an independent state at the same time.

I'm not suggesting that it was fair that these things happened, but it wasn't just a case of pesky refugees from concentration camps rocking up in Palestine for no reason apart from to cause a problem for the locals. They had just survived the Holocaust and were desperate for safety. And it wasn't just a case of Jews being handed a country when all borders were settled everywhere and no countries were being created or lines drawn on maps to 'solve' other problems.

Your 'neutral' post also gives literally no explanation as to why Jews might want a Jewish country, why they might think Israel is the right place for this, and why many Jews chose to go there after surviving the concentration camps. (It also misses out on Jews emptying out to Israel from the surrounding Arab countries where they were not in fact allowed to live equally and happily).

Well it’s not like majority rule for most of the world right? When the European Australians showed up they were outnumbered. The European Americans too. So it’s not that relevant to look back.

There was nowhere in the world with a majority Jewish population until Israel was founded (and it remains unique today) so by your rules there should never be a Jewish country?