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Conflict in the Middle East

Free Palestine

244 replies

mommyandmore · 26/09/2025 20:57

Please forgive my ignorance! Please can someone tell me the history of this? I have obviously seen and read what has unfolded over the past year but I’d really like someone to break down what’s happening. The things I’m seeing are horrific! Thanks and please no sarky comments, I’m really wanting to educate myself further about this.

OP posts:
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10
SameOldHill · 28/09/2025 22:09

I don’t think anyone here doesn’t feel sympathy for the Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Germany.

Of course they needed a refuge.

But it’s an unfortunate fact that there were people already on the land who had been living there for centuries. You can’t just go in and displace those people and not expect pushback. Of course the Palestinians weren’t going to accept the land in which they’d lived in for generations being taken away. War was inevitable.

We wouldn’t expect any other people to roll over and take it so why do we expect of the Palestinians? The holocaust wasn’t their doing, so why should they have to pay the price for it?

Britain should have managed it better. They promised it to both sides and pulled out when it got too much. And the UN had no right to carve up the land without even consulting the local communities. And the US should sort out their own problems of gun violence and healthcare before they spend billions abroad.

@dropoutin your explanation was excellent and very impartial, I thought.

ScrollingLeaves · 28/09/2025 22:03

PurpleThistle7 · 26/09/2025 23:54

I can only say that the long response here is wildly biased and unhelpful. But OP - it’s a story of thousands of years so quite difficult to summarise. If you really want to learn you’ll need to do more homework.

We are all living in countries with 1000s of years old histories.

PurpleThistle7 · 28/09/2025 21:55

SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 21:23

I was showing that there was in fact more than ‘one’ place to try to flee to as a Jewish WWII refugee.

The Wiki numbers of Jewish WWII refugees taken in are in thousands, so you said:
those who escaped were turned away from America and the UK

But in fact America (US) took in 190,000 Jewish refugees, the UK took in 65,000 Jewish refugees.

Out of 811,000 Jewish refugees, 120,000 went to Palestine (accepted by the UK on behalf of the local Palestinians).

Factually speaking the ‘one’ place you said Jewish refugees had to go took in less than 15% of the total number of Jewish refugees. 85% went to the many other places.

Edited

I don’t think we are understanding each other. You’re showing me the percentage of Jews who were taken in by other places. I’m talking about the many others who weren’t. I found the Wikipedia page and you need to keep reading.

After WW2, there were hundreds of thousands of displaced, stateless Jewish people in refugee camps in Europe. When some of them tried to go ‘home’ in Poland, they were the victims of pogroms. The United States, UK, etc etc didn’t want them. Thousands chose to run the Palestine blockade set up by the UK to stop Jewish people from legally entering Palestine. That’s what led to the creation of a Jewish state - a literal lack of any other solution outside another Holocaust.

Your stat is something else altogether.

SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 21:46

The Ottomans were literally a colonial power in the region for centuries but Turkey does not come in for any blame.

I suppose we could blame them for losing WWI.
Hitler would probably have died as a failed artist.
No WWII, as WWII was in part caused by the ruinous and punitive WWI reparations placed on Germany by the victors.
No Holocaust

Yes, all the Ottomans’ fault.

SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 21:36

I don’t reserve all the blame for the British. I do blame them for their Balfour declaration of intent to carve up the Ottoman Empire and set aside land that was not theirs and they had no right to for a Jewish homeland.

It was not much different than Capt Cook claiming Tahiti for Mad King George.

Also the Ottoman Empire didn’t just “collapse” like a Jenga tower, it was defeated by the British in WWI. The British attacked it first, it entered the war and then the British armed and funded nationalist Arab leaders who wanted freedom from the Ottoman Empire. Then came the Sinai campaign that ended with the British capturing Jerusalem. Finally, the British defaulted on their promises to the Arab nationalists and decided they would carve up the land by drawing lines on maps however they pleased freezing out the local Palestinians from any right of self-determination.
https://www.concordor.com/Britains-Role-in-Defeating-the-Ottoman-Empire-During-World-War-I

SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 21:23

PurpleThistle7 · 28/09/2025 20:54

I’m not sure what you’re showing here. During ww2 when Jewish people were desperately trying to leave Europe, they were often turned away. There were quotas and restrictions and eventually everything stopped altogether. The British then turned the Jews away from what was then Palestine so they snuck in if they could. This screenshot shows this?

I was showing that there was in fact more than ‘one’ place to try to flee to as a Jewish WWII refugee.

The Wiki numbers of Jewish WWII refugees taken in are in thousands, so you said:
those who escaped were turned away from America and the UK

But in fact America (US) took in 190,000 Jewish refugees, the UK took in 65,000 Jewish refugees.

Out of 811,000 Jewish refugees, 120,000 went to Palestine (accepted by the UK on behalf of the local Palestinians).

Factually speaking the ‘one’ place you said Jewish refugees had to go took in less than 15% of the total number of Jewish refugees. 85% went to the many other places.

Free Palestine
ThatLemonJoker · 28/09/2025 21:22

SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 20:04

The problem isn’t unique though. This is not the first time that British lines drawn on maps have caused wars, massacres, ethnic cleansing. There was an arrogance of the British Empire and the after effects are still echoing today,

Why do you reserve all the blame for the British, who were only administering the region because there was a vacuum after the Ottoman collapse? Do the Ottomans get any blame? Or the UN?

There is a weird narrative of Western arrogance combined with self-hatred that also runs though this whole debate. Blame the West for everything (including Israel, which is lumped in with the West even though culturally and ethnically it is very Middle-Eastern). Absolve anyone non-Western of any blame, to the point of denying them any power or agency at all. The Ottomans were literally a colonial power in the region for centuries but Turkey does not come in for any blame.

SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 21:15

SharonEllis · 28/09/2025 20:48

You cam dismiss the concept of a homeland for yourself. You cant dismiss it for the Jewish people. They have a right to self determination and there is nowhere other than Israel that that could be. Israel always recognised the right of others to be in Israel and expected there to be an Arab state alongside them also. It was the Arabs that rejected the proposal and rejected the right of the Jews to be there.

The concept of a homeland is a subjective thing. That is not dismissing the concept of a homeland, that is acknowledging it and the fact that there are probably as many opinions on what does homeland mean to you are there are people.

I doubt very much that the entire Jewish community have cookie cutter views on Israel as their homeland on a personal level instead of or as well as on a historic level.

It was the Arabs that rejected the proposal and rejected the right of the Jews to be there.
History is history, no one alive today rejected the 1947 partition plan. I suspect many rejected it because the British had decided it was best for all concerned as a knee jerk reaction to that sort of imperialist arrogance. Trump and the US are the inheritors of that arrogance on the world stage today. After all, it is we who have blocked the entire UN from acting to stop genocide by vetoing every call for a ceasefire.

I personally feel that the parties involved (Israeli and Palestinian) are all new people with their own ideas. Saying It was the Arabs that rejected the proposal and rejected the right of the Jews to be there. is meaningless because what was agreed to or rejected by men who are bones in their graves is not a determiner of what the men in power will agree to today.

PurpleThistle7 · 28/09/2025 20:54

SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 19:33

@PurpleThistle7
In WW2 they were murdered in the millions and those who escaped were turned away from America and the UK and almost anywhere they tried. Boatloads of desperate people with ‘one’ place to try.

Wiki lists the refugee reception statistics and it doesn’t corroborate the turned away and only one place to go (Palestine?)

See screenshot.

I’m not sure what you’re showing here. During ww2 when Jewish people were desperately trying to leave Europe, they were often turned away. There were quotas and restrictions and eventually everything stopped altogether. The British then turned the Jews away from what was then Palestine so they snuck in if they could. This screenshot shows this?

Stripes56 · 28/09/2025 20:48

TicklishMauveSquid · 28/09/2025 17:50

What country would allow people who were sending suicide bombers to blow themselves up into their shopping malls and discos and pizza parlours, to operate their own airport?

What country would allow people who were sending suicide bombers to blow themselves up into their shopping malls and discos and pizza parlours, to operate their own port?

They weren't allowed those because they kept trying to destroy Israel (fixed it for you).

That was BEFORE Palestinians voted in a terrorist org as their government who had a charter to annihilate Israel and kill all the Jews.

Gaza actually looked very nice before Oct 7th. They certainly had a lot of nice stuff, well the ones who were building mansions and driving high end cars did anyway. Gazans were obviously able to leave Gaza to work, study and even move abroad. They were able to work and access medical care in Israel despite their government vowing to destroy Israel.

I can imagine life was and is very miserable under Hamas constantly attacking Israel, and torturing and executing anyone they accused of being a collaborator.

Would you then support the EU port workers then voting not to support trade of weapons and other goods to a country suspected of committing war crimes and killing thousands of innocent civilians? A country that laid siege to civilians preventing them accessing essential goods?

Would you support a boycott of this country due to decisions of its government?

SharonEllis · 28/09/2025 20:48

SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 20:38

I think it is kind of a subjective thing, the concept of homeland.

I do think that after dozens of generations away, that a land of origin in the distant past is not really yours to claim outright.

Besides, Israel plus the land it occupies includes the homeland of the Palestinians. If Israelis are not colonizers, then neither are Palestinians and so some kind of fair peace process is needed that recognises both peoples belong there.

You cam dismiss the concept of a homeland for yourself. You cant dismiss it for the Jewish people. They have a right to self determination and there is nowhere other than Israel that that could be. Israel always recognised the right of others to be in Israel and expected there to be an Arab state alongside them also. It was the Arabs that rejected the proposal and rejected the right of the Jews to be there.

SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 20:38

SharonEllis · 28/09/2025 20:13

Its a completely different situation. European colonisers in the United States had no connection to the land that they settled. They perceived it as 'virgin' land, a fresh start. The Jewish people originate in Israel, there has been a long presence of Jews in Israel, despite repeated colonisation of their land and exile and their cultural connection to the land has been continuous. And despite the history, in the United states immigrants are recognised as Americans, despite hierarchies of race that still to a greater or lesser extent. Israelis are still having to prove their legitimacy.

I think it is kind of a subjective thing, the concept of homeland.

I do think that after dozens of generations away, that a land of origin in the distant past is not really yours to claim outright.

Besides, Israel plus the land it occupies includes the homeland of the Palestinians. If Israelis are not colonizers, then neither are Palestinians and so some kind of fair peace process is needed that recognises both peoples belong there.

Stripes56 · 28/09/2025 20:25

SharonEllis · 28/09/2025 17:13

I'm willing to bet you have no connections to anyone living in Israel or you would not typify life in the shadow of 7 October & ongoing war & terrorism as 'feasting'. Sure they have enough food & large parts of life go on as normal because they built a thriving society, one that protects its citizens. When Israel withdrew from Gaza they could have done the same. Hamas chose not to.

Israel still controlled all of Gaza’s borders. It bombed it airstrip. It did not allow Gaza to use its sea border for trade.

Imagine a situation where by other countries would not allow ships to sail to Israel from it’s ports, or refused to support flights to and from Israel. Might that seriously interfere with a thriving Israeli economy?

I know that not all Israelis support Netanyahu’s coalition- but have you seen polls about how the majority of Israelis view Palestinians? They literally are feasting in comparison to the humanitarian crisis happening on their doorstep step - and either they have been sheltered from the truth by the press or they have closed their ears and shut their eyes.

Stripes56 · 28/09/2025 20:17

PollyPaintsFlowers · 28/09/2025 17:04

And all those countries attacked Israel first, apart from Qatar although they've harboured Hamas leaders for years and were forewarned what would happen

Maybe if countries don't want Israel to retaliate and defend itself, they should leave Israel alone 🤷‍♀️

I read Qatar was requested to take in Hamas leaders by Israel and U.S. - so that they did not go to Syria?

"When the Hamas office was opened in Qatar several years ago, it was done with the very explicit support of the U.S. and Israel. This was not done against their wishes," Juneau said.

Can you link an article which shows Qatar were pre -warned they would be bombed if continued to house Hamas leadership?

No wonder Qatar seriously upset.

www.cbc.ca/news/politics/israel-attack-doha-consequences-mediator-1.7628885

SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 20:17

PurpleThistle7 · 28/09/2025 17:22

Me? Not particularly. It’s currently Israel and it seems a good policy to keep your country… a country. Most countries have a goal of keeping their borders secure. Do you think Israel should have a manifesto of porous borders and freedom of movement?

Like several other topics, it’s actually impossible to have a reasonable conversation about this. Too much history and too much emotion.

Yes most countries stick to their borders.

They know if they invade, seize and occupy a neighbour they will be in for resistance ranging from peaceful protest to terrorism. They might also suffer international pressure to withdraw and leave the occupied country to resume its independent statehood. Some might even be invaded themselves by a UN mandated coalition to force the withdrawal of troops and enact a regime change.

Netanyahu has had far more patience than Saddam did.

SharonEllis · 28/09/2025 20:13

SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 20:02

Why is it strange? My grandfather fled religious persecution to come to the USA. He is a coloniser and I am a grandchild of colonisers because I’m not Native American.

Fleeing persecution is one of the top reasons why people migrate and colonise other lands.

Its a completely different situation. European colonisers in the United States had no connection to the land that they settled. They perceived it as 'virgin' land, a fresh start. The Jewish people originate in Israel, there has been a long presence of Jews in Israel, despite repeated colonisation of their land and exile and their cultural connection to the land has been continuous. And despite the history, in the United states immigrants are recognised as Americans, despite hierarchies of race that still to a greater or lesser extent. Israelis are still having to prove their legitimacy.

SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 20:08

PollyPaintsFlowers · 28/09/2025 17:00

I'm sure the Egyptians will be amused to know a random Mumsnetter knows better than them about the status of their own border 😁

There are two sides to every border.

Egypt controls their side and insist they have kept it open for humanitarian aid.

Israel controls the Palestinian side and they have kept it firmly shut.

There is no such thing as one side of an international border completely controlling both sides of a border.

SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 20:04

Comedycook · 28/09/2025 16:15

I always find it strange that my grandparent who fled nazi persecution is described as a coloniser

Exactly. 57 Muslim countries. One Jewish country which is the size of Wales and has to defend itself constantly to simply exist. Jewish populations ethnically cleansed from the Middle East and North Africa over time so that most of those countries have tiny Jewish populations now or none at all. But colonisers?! Yeah right

The problem isn’t unique though. This is not the first time that British lines drawn on maps have caused wars, massacres, ethnic cleansing. There was an arrogance of the British Empire and the after effects are still echoing today,

SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 20:02

Jewishbookworm · 28/09/2025 15:24

I always find it strange that my grandparent who fled nazi persecution is described as a coloniser.

I mean, what should he have done to gain the approval of you all? Gone to the UK/US/Holland/China? You all know there were quotas. He was lucky to somehow get permission to go to Palestine.

Stayed in Germany and died? Well, worth it for some I suppose to get the approval of the non-Jews of the world. But you know what? I would rather have your hatred and disapproval and be around.

Also, Jordan was created as a Palestinian state but this is conveniently forgotten.

Edited

Why is it strange? My grandfather fled religious persecution to come to the USA. He is a coloniser and I am a grandchild of colonisers because I’m not Native American.

Fleeing persecution is one of the top reasons why people migrate and colonise other lands.

SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 20:00

itsnotveryfriendlyhereisit · 28/09/2025 16:49

Israel took control of the crossing during the war, and as of July 2025 it is managed by the Gaza Division of the IDF.

Yes since May 2024

SharonEllis · 28/09/2025 19:57

Honesting · 28/09/2025 19:19

If you meant me, I was being satirical. I was mocking the Jew hatred on this thread. It should have been pretty obvious with (a) the pun of 'free' Palestine, and (b) the use of the word Shylock.

I did, sorry, still smarting from some of the appalling bias on this thread so no I didn't spot the satire. And any black humour we attempt on these threads is usually greeted with a big dose of sanctimoniousness.

SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 19:56

@PollyPaintsFlowers
It explains why the most common surname in Gaza translates into English as 'the Egyptian' because in Arabic tribes they're named after where they come from

Do you similarly apply this logic to Jewish families with family names that have been anglecized or latinized or russianized?

Or the descendants of African slaves that bear the family names of their ancestors’ owner?

Or even aboriginal families with names like ‘Wyatt’, ‘Reid’ that are pure Anglo or even Scottish “McCarthy” due to invasion by the British?

Wait, didn’t Egypt invade and seize Gaza in 1948? And also did not allow Egyptians to enter Gaza to settle or Palestinians to leave Gaza to settle in Egypt?

When it comes to invasion and occupation (with or without colonisation), current family name is not enough to determine race never mind prove the historic origin of a family.

SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 19:33

@PurpleThistle7
In WW2 they were murdered in the millions and those who escaped were turned away from America and the UK and almost anywhere they tried. Boatloads of desperate people with ‘one’ place to try.

Wiki lists the refugee reception statistics and it doesn’t corroborate the turned away and only one place to go (Palestine?)

See screenshot.

Free Palestine
mouthpipette · 28/09/2025 19:29

This reply has been deleted

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SpiritAdder · 28/09/2025 19:28

dropoutin · 26/09/2025 22:21

In the late 19th century a movement called Zionism arose encouraging jews from elsewhere in the world to emigrate to Palestine (then under the control of the Ottoman Empire and populated mostly by Arab muslims, with a small jewish minority) and create a jewish homeland.

In 1917 Britain issued the Balfour Declaration, which expressed support for the idea of a jewish homeland in Palestine, without dealing with how that would impact upon the indigenous population.

In the course of WWI the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist.

At the end of WWI Palestine, along with several other territories in the region, was made a "mandate" of Britain. This basically meant Britain was charged with overseeing its transition to nationhood - setting up the relevant political and judicial institutions etc.

During the interwar period Zionist migration increased. The British administrators favoured it in various ways, eg by changing laws and traditions of land ownership, exacerbating the growth of Zionism as a separatist movement. There was considerable violence between Zionist settlers and the indigenous population.

Britain considered how to deal with this violence and came up with the idea of partitioning Palestine into two countries, one jewish and one Arab muslim. The Zionists broadly supported this idea, while the Arabs (both Palestinians and surrounding Arab countries) rejected it.

At the end of WW2, the situation was exacerbated by thousands of refugees from the Nazi concentration camps arriving in Palestine. Britain couldn't come up with a satisfactory solution so said "bugger this, we've had enough", announced the mandate would be ending and left it for the UN to sort out.

The UN decided on a partition plan with a larger Israel, to account for prospective immigration over subsequent decades, and a smaller Palestine, even though at the time jews made up about a third of the population. Again this was accepted by Zionists but not by Arabs.

In 1948, in accordance with this plan, the state of Israel was declared. The Arab League immediately declared war upon it. Israel won that war and in the ensuing peace treaty the rest of Palestine was divided up - the West Bank between Israel and Transjordan, the Gaza strip to Egypt.

There was continual hostility, every so often erupting into war, between Israel and everyone else over the following decades. In 1967 after the six day war between Israel and Egypt, Jordan and Syria, which Israel won, Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza strip, which it has controlled ever since.

Palestinians in those territories continued to rebel and refuse to accept the occupation. The UN also didn't accept it and repeatedly declared it illegal. Israel maintained that it was necessary as a security "buffer zone" against countries that sought its annihilation. As a general pattern, small and ineffective skirmishes by Palestinians would be met by overwhelming military force by Israel, killing vastly more.

In the 1980s and 1990s there were attempts to resolve the conflict and create a Palestinian state alongside Israel, but these were unsuccessful.

In 1988 Hamas was founded to fight for Palestinian statehood, with an explicit project to destroy Israel and create a single state over the whole of Palestine which would have an Arab muslim majority.

Israel continued to establish settlements in the occupied territories, treating the native Palestinians as second class citizens with few rights.

In 2005 Israel withdrew its settlements from Gaza (while maintaining and expanding them in the West Bank) and turned it over to self government, but maintained military and border control over it, restricting what could come in, who could go out etc.

In 2007 The Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas to government. Conflict erupted intermittently between Hamas and Israel, breaking into all out war in 2014.

In 2023, Hamas staged a raid into Israeli territory, killing about 1000 - 1500 people (depending on who you believe) and taking hundreds of hostages. Israel then went into all out war, obliterating Gaza, killing over 50,000 Palestinians (which it justifies by saying it is attempting to eradicate Hamas). The Palestinian civilians have been repeatedly ordered to evacuate from one area to another, had their livelihoods destroyed and are now suffering widespread starvation. Israel has been accused of delberate genocide in order to eventually take full control of the whole area.

No Nakba of 1947-1948?
Or Nukba of 1967?