Free Palestine

dw = don’t worry.

And really, Sharon - don’t worry. Think some people are less than happy tonight about a possible peace deal & end to the fighting.

Go figure 🤷🏼‍♀️

What does dw mean?

No, dw, I've got the measure of you completely.

The war will have ended so the fighting will stop.

No one can force Netanyahu’s government or Hamas to adopt a two state solution can they? It’s called being realistic.

You seem very confused.

And those who say that a Palestinian state shouldn't happen now after genocidal maniacs have killed and maimed 10% of their population and starved the entirety of Gaza need look at the implications of what they are saying. If you can't see the need to protect people living beside a genocidal, murderous state then you need to question your motivations. You actively want people to continue living under the occupation of a genocidal state whilst on your high horse about how Israelis need to be kept safe, how you tally that in your head, how you've decided that Israelis are more entitled to be safe than anyone else is beyond me.

But it’s not just about Israeli forces withdrawing from the strip.
It’s about the kind of living conditions and level of self-determination the Palestinians will have after.
Unless Israel pull out completely from the West Bank, and give the two territories ample opportunity to connect with each other and trade and develop relations with other countries, we will be back to the non-peace of October 6th.
And the cycle will continue.

Actually Israel have said they'll be staying for the foreseeable future.

But Israel aren't trying to eliminate all people of the same ethnicity as the terrorists.

Haven't you seen the peace plan? The war will immediately end if Hamas agree to the terms and Israeli forces will withdraw from the Gaza strip.

I'm not even pro-Israel in that I absolutely do not support their current actions in Gaza....that doesn't mean I've lost my ability to think critically though.

I've seen absolutely awful antisemitism on MN. It was bad during the Corbyn era but after October 7th it has been unbelievably awful. People justifying October 7th. People claiming Israel did October 7th. People denying that anyone was raped on October 7th.
Holocaust denial, claims that Jews control the media, control our government, that Keir Starmer's wife controls our government via him because she's Jewish.

And people will still claim that they haven't seen any of this. That it's all 'legitimate criticism of Israel being shot down as antisemitism'.

So yeah. Pay better attention before you try telling me what people do and don't post on MN.

I saw that thread, she was not worshipping Sinwar but instead saying that reading the book helps you understand the mindset of Hamas. Things are not always so black and white - I would read something written by Sinwar and Netanyahu despite not agreeing with either of them simply to see what way their minds work and see what their perspective is.

There is a difference between having a population that is predominantly one religion and giving more rights to people of a certain religion. Ireland is primarily catholic but if my unbaptised child applies for a school place it will have an equal chance to getting a place to a catholic, muslim or jewish child - similarly in the UK public schools are not segregated. They also don’t offer citizenship with no connection to the country based on religion. I disagree with religion being part of any constitution and should have no place in the laws of the land, no one should get more or less rights based on religion - I would also condemn Saudi, Dubai, Iran for having religion at the heart of governance.

Hamas were funded and supported by the Israeli government and have not allowed elections in over 20 years. They are not a legitimate government so it’s not really a fair comparison. I also do not believe in this day and age that the UK would try and eliminate all people of the same ethnicity as the terrorists.

We have literally had a poster hero worshipping Sinwar and people excusing 7 October in all sorts of ways.

Very, very rare for any of the pro Israel posters to live there ... there have been one or two but they get too upset with the comments on these boards so generally barely post or stop posting after a short while.

Again, you have clearly not been paying attention.

Perhaps you should.

"My current government"? What exactly do you mean by that.

Israel is a country. Hamas and other anti-Israel groups call it the Zionist Entity because they do not recognise it as a legitimate state, which is why there is a concerted effort to delegitimise it from its very creation.

And people claim that they know the basics.

A few posters have mentioned living with rocket fire etc… which would make me assume they are not living in London.

I obviously mean no one on the mumsnet boards that I have seen.

Why are you making assumptions about which governments people have?

Lots of pro Israel supporters on this board live in the UK, myself for example.

There are so many historical documents along with newspaper adverts from the 20’s and 30’s about the zionist project. Are you saying the creation of Israel was not a zionist project?

Your current government are self professed Zionists who talk openly about creating greater Israel and many key members of the current government are openly calling for the West Bank and Gaza to be Annexed and all Arabs dispelled. I don’t think it shows any affiliation with Hamas to link the creation of Israel to Zionism - it’s a historical fact.

I'm still waiting patiently but strangely, no-one has. I wonder what the problem is there.

It's 100% true that people hold Israel to an entirely different standard than other countries because of the obvious reason.

It's also 100% true that (if in the UK - or indeed in the USA), we are living in a Christian country and there are many other countries who also have a religious basis so Israel is also not unique in that respect. It's just unique regarding which religion is at its centre.

Hamas was originally elected, and then took over Gaza very quickly. Their ethos is all about destruction of Israel (and disdain for women) and they absolutely did cross the border to attack, rape and murder on the 7th October. If you think about how many people they murdered as a proportion of the population of Israel, (roughly 10 million people in Israel compared with roughly 70 million in the UK), it would be like if France showed up in southern England and murdered 7,500 people and kidnapped another 1700 (very, very rough calculations). What would the UK do next?

The entire thing - from 2000 years ago to today is heartbreaking but obviously we can't fix any of the past. I have yet to see any sort of answer about where to go from here. No country could ever allow that sort of thing to happen without responding, Hamas is a reign of terror for everyone around them, there's no 2-state solution that either side can live with as there is 0 trust at all, and at the core of it, is an entire generation of people (on both sides) growing up in this terrible time and bringing this into the next 50 years.

I am sure there must be something to suggest - it's mind blowing when you think about how we holiday in Germany and Japan today. That would have been impossible to imagine at one point and now here we are. So it must be possible. I just can't see it at all just now.

You haven't been paying attention if you don't think anyone tried to justify October 7th.

What about the slogan 'Resistance is justified when you're occupied'?

No and I don’t think anyone has made an excuse for October 7th that I have seen- that was a horrific crime. What people have said is that the conflict didn’t start on October 7th, that Palestinians were being murdered, forcibly detained, raped, and mutilated for decades. People have said denying people their human rights helps Hamas because traumatised people are easier to recruit into a terrorist organisation. No one has said Oct 7th was in anyway acceptable, they have said giving the Palestinians equal rights, treating them as human beings and stopping the land theft would be the best way to stop Hamas recruitment and to stop terrorist attacks. Giving catholics rights in Northern Ireland stopped IRA terrorist attacks - happy people who live without fear of persecution are much less likely to pick up arms against you!