Free Palestine

Except that Netanyahu has now said they won't.

The World at One on Radio4 was interesting on the new peace proposals, interviewing people with varying views.

From my point of view fwiw Netanyahu has already said no to any two state solution so my hopes from this morning have dissipated.

Quite. It seems it's not only Hamas who are openly willing to sacrifice every last Palestinian

They really do deserve so much better from their government and so called supporters

Absolutely.

No one likes sitting down at a table with the 'other side' but that's what is needed for a lasting peace. Not a bad plan imposed unilaterally under the threat of intensifying genocide, which the other side get through the media!

The problem with the current “peace talks” is that there is only one side at the table. The other issue is that that one side has broken cease fires countless times and has also openly said they want to achieve Greater Israel and have talked about developing Gaza as a resort.

Two buddies getting together and calling it Peace Talks is a PR exercise - we’ve been here before and seen it countless times. If it does lead to peace I would be delighted but I don’t think it is real.

Peace in Northern Ireland was achieved through having everyone at the table - Irish and British governments, Irish and British terrorist groups. Honestly some of the people at the table you would not invite into your home. No one was entirely happy with the outcome, everyone had to compromise, both sides gave up weapons and both sides saw horrible people who committed awful crimes go free. But there were no more bombs, no more blood shed, no more innocent people being imprisoned or murdered, no more soldiers walking the streets with guns. Everyone born there can now decide if they want to be seen as British or Irish, there is a right to two passports, borders are kept open with Britain and Ireland. Catholics and Protestants can both join the police, the army, live where they want and both are represented at a government level. It is a different place to 30 years ago! There are still the ripples, still ongoing court cases to try and get justice for the dead but ordinary people can go about their lives without fear.

Peace talks are hard, they take time and all the small details like borders, voting rights, citizenship rights are hashed out in fine detail. It is not something one side put together without talking to the other side or without committing to borders or rights for the other side. Compromise is a two way street and a Peace Talk should have more than one voice at the table.

But your child can go to the same school as a christian child or my unbaptised child- in Israel schools are segregated and the non jewish schools get a fraction of the funding. If a christian in the US decides they want Scottish citizenship they can’t just move there and the state sure as hell wouldn’t provide armed guards as they stole a non christian families house! Your citizenship and rights should not be linked to what version of God you believe in.

If I moved to Israel or Egypt I would have no problem with the holiday leave being linked to judaism or the muslim religion but I would have a problem with having different rights or a subpar segregated education system that leaves my child at a disadvantage.

You do realise that what you have said about stripping citizenship from people is exactly what has happened to Palestinians. There are countless Palestinians born in areas that have no become part of Israel that are denied Israeli citizenship and the right to return to their land and houses.

No, I don't like dead children any more than anyone - I'm not a psychopath. I just can't see how anyone can negotiate with terrorists in any sort of productive way. I'm not a monster, I'm just terribly, terribly sad.

There are Catholic schools all over Scotland - paid for by the state (so by me). Bank holidays are linked to the Christian religion, my child learns about the nativity in her state school and they do worksheets on the Easter holiday in April. I have no right to a holiday on Rosh Hashanah but my work closes for Christmas. These are government policies as this is a Christian country. I know this and I haven't refused to participate in any of the traditions of my home, but it's absolutely true that it's a part of my daily life.

No one ever believes something will happen until it does. Anyone with a Jewish grandparent (and other ethnicities of course, I can only speak to my experience) was raised to be mindful and cautious and try to preempt the disaster. By the time everyone is being open about deportations or stripping citizenship from specific groups of people it's too late to save your family.

😂 not a chance of that happening

Yes. I sincerely hope that the peace process in the region will be left to the people there, and to the experts so my opinion on borders is entirely irrelevant.

Thanks for engaging. It seems that many talk about 1967 borders and these have been agreed to by Hamas.

I don’t think it’s particularly fair as the two territories will be cut off from each other but there seems to be to be no alternative

I'm sorry that Jewish people in the UK are suffering, the anti semitism of many sadly showing.

I agree there have been and are many wars in which boundaries and land are changed. It appears it only matters when its anything yo do with Gaza/Israel. If both sides could move forwards it would be good for all but as long as the forever victim narrative is pushed for Palestinians it wont since they assume justification in attacks. Feels like they don't really want peace but for Israel to not exist. That will not be allowed so feels like terrorists will continue. Many in the west screaming about Palestinian really dont help the situation move forward but enable the conflict to continue.

But what do you personally think the borders should be?

Sorry, I'm assuming you believe in a Palestinian state, so maybe I should ask that question first.

Do you believe in a Palestinian state?

I don't have an opinion on where the borders should sit because I don't know enough details about the situation re the borders for an informed opinion. Sorry if that sounds like I'm not answering the question but I'm being honest.

I'm happy to be educated if others cares to debate the issue of the borders.

Re Netanyahu and his government which has too many far right people in it for my liking ... if the war ends the 2026 elections can take place. My expectation and hope would be for a more moderate government to be voted in who may genuinely be more amenable to the idea of a two state solution.

The path to a Palestinian state will be a long one and the deal states that it requires development of the PA. There are elections in Israel next year. There are lots of moving parts and if Hamas is out of the way there is room for others to come forward.

Well I don’t want the war to continue, so engage with me!

In the BBC article that was linked, this is the bit I worry about:

“The plan also says Hamas will have no role in governing Gaza, and leaves the door open for an eventual Palestinian state - but Netanyahu later again ruled this out.”

It is good that the world leaders are pledging their support for a Palestinian state as well as the rebuilding of Gaza. But how is this going to work when Netanyahu and so many of Israel leaders are opposed to it?

Firstly, start with borders. Where do you think the borders should sit? 1967 or the UN partition? In your opinion?

I think they’ll just revert it back to Donald Trump as again, the social media is nice and easy and it’s a very clear ‘fascists v blue hair’ scenario. Getting to grips with the political complexities of what is happening in Sudan is beyond them, and too much effort, and there’s not as much celebrity glamour involved so I think they’ll give that a quiet swerve.

I look forward to them devoting all that energy and influence to the world's other crises!

I honestly think Gaza has become a mental illness for some of my friends.

The amount of time my friends spend posting, writing and marching for Palestine is wildly disproportionate to any interest they have ever taken in equally tragic events worldwide. We’ve had 4 genocides in the last 10 years, a third of a million Ukrainian children kidnapped and vanished into Russia, and the ongoing terror rule of the Taliban where I honestly can’t think of any more abuse and violations they can heap on the women - frankly I would rather be dead than live their lives. 150,000 people have been killed in Sudan - about twice the number as in Gaza - murdered by pro-Arab forces, with 12 million people forced from their homes.

If ‘all eyes are on Gaza’ then who is bothering about these poor souls? Is a Sudanese life of lesser value than a Gazan just because they don’t have sophisticated social media to show us what is going on, and have no ‘on side’ celebrities in the same way?

Gaza has become nothing but a purity spiral for the left, yet another way of insecurely proving their credentials as an ‘anti fascist’ by using fascist tactics, such as demanding forced declarations of support from people or otherwise shun them. Businesses with the weakest of links to Israel are boycotted and many have been vandalised. I don’t even need to mention the horrific rise in antisemitism (or maybe I do) which borders on pro-Nazi at this stage.

The marches and online ‘activism’ has given the self loathing and insecure among us a nice easy bandwagon to hop aboard, lead by nice familiar celebrities like Greta and Mo. I honestly think if the agreement is signed and this is the end of the war, they will be a bit lost and deflated. What will they post about 24/7? How will they further embed themselves into left wing society? How will they show they are much, much better people than the rest of the country? It’ll be interesting to see how it pans out.

It is a success in that there will finally be a ceasefire and sufficient aid will be let into the country. Palestinians will be allowed to leave AND return.

It will hopefully be a “demilitarised” zone.

There are only vague suggestions of a 2ss at the end- but at least it’s mentioned.

It sounds promising!

Let’s hope neither Hamas and Netanyahu let it fail.

No one here on the Pro-Palestinian side wants the war to continue

I'm not so sure. This does appear to be "an equitable and just solution for the Palestinians, as well as safety for the Israelis".

Some regular commentators on the war seem to have gone silent about this huge thing that has happened though. A peace deal that could well end the war.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1dq9xwngv2o

Why is there not a great cheer from the Pro Palestinians about the prospect below? Is it because many of them secretly harboured support for Hamas and their forced surrender will not hard. Is it because 'from the river to the sea' sounds so hollow?

Don’t be daft. No one here on the Pro-Palestinian side wants the war to continue. We just want an equitable and just solution for the Palestinians, as well as safety for the Israelis.

Your vision seems to be that you want the Israelis safe and that’s it.

It's not shocking but it is saddening and telling how some people oppose any possibility for peace and security for the Palestinians if it also means peace and security for Israel and its continued existence.

Ah thank you.
I knew people were invested in the war continuing but I have to admit I'm a bit surprised by how transpatently disappointed they seem to be. Oh well, lets hope the right people are rolling their sleeves up.