Central Bank of Ireland confirms it will no longer approve sale of Israeli ‘war bonds’

As to who the arbiter is, well nobody, its not a difficult concept and its one with a very, very long history so I dont think it needs an arbiter really. But I think the Chief Rabbi is as good a guide as anyone. 'Zionism is nothing more or less than the near 4,000-year-old expression of the Jewish People’s connection to, and right to self-determination in, the land situated at the very heart of Jewish faith and peoplehood.'

'Chaim Weizmann, who would later become the first president of the State of Israel was once asked by a member of the House of Lords why Jews were so fixated on one tiny, contested piece of land. Were there not other territories in which a Jewish state could be established? Weizmann responded that this would be like asking why he had driven 20 miles to visit his mother, when there were many other perfectly nice old ladies living on his street.'

He also says 'Zionism, which upholds this right of the Jewish People to a national home in their ancestral homeland, is undoubtedly best served by a peaceful future for both Israelis and Palestinians.' Other zionists may disagree. That doesn't mean he isn't a zionist or that the definition of zionism has changed.

'I am a Zionist because I believe that alongside the world’s 157 Christian-majority countries and 49 Muslim-majority countries, there is a vital need for a single Jewish country. I am a Zionist because I am committed to the idea that even in a place where conflict has reigned for centuries, peace is achievable and worth fighting for. I am a Zionist because I have inherited a language, culture and faith from the indigenous people of Judea. I am a Zionist because over thousands of years, my ancestors recommitted daily to holding Israel at the heart of their faith. I am a Zionist because I am a Jew.'

www.newstatesman.com/politics/religion/2024/10/what-is-zionism

There absolutely is a concensus on what zionism is. Its the right to self determination of the Jewish people in their homeland of Israel. What that means to people, how it manifests itself politically in the past, today and in the future will vary. Being a zionist doesn't determine what someone may believe on any any other issue. You'll have right wing zionists and left wing zionists etc. Just because some is a zionist doesnt mean they and their beliefs on any other issue define what zionism is. The political movement, Zionism articulated by Herzl, is a distinct manifestation of zionism in response to the needs of the day (the pogroms), but zionism pre-dates Herzl.

It is antisemitic to deny the jewish people the right to self determination, unless you are some sort of anarchist who thinks all nation states should be destroyed.

For anyone interested in further reading on Israeli Zionist movements that directly affect today’s conflict in Gaza and the West Bank look up Merkaz Harav and Gush Emunim.

What the major parties believe now is important politically right now but it doesn't define zionism.

It does demonstrate Zionism now.

Ideologies never survive realpolitik without being changed.

Exactly. There is no consensus on Zionism or Zionist. So your comment that the vast majority of Jewish people are Zionist, that it simply means the belief in a homeland of Israel for Jewish people, and anyone antiZionist is “almost always” antisemitic is as meaningless as it is pointless.

Who is the arbiter of what is true Zionism? You? Kahane?

You have already said the World Zionist Organisation isn’t the arbiter.

I agree that Zionism isn’t the government of Israel. Governments are made of people and political parties, not ideologies.

Zionism is an ideology that has been interpreted in vastly different ways and even today there is no consensus.

But to say that Zionism has nothing to do with the government of Israel is a lot like saying communism had nothing to do with the government of the USSR.

Zionism is how Israel was founded and its ideology as understood and implemented by the leaders of its Zionist parties are a large part of why the conflict between Israel and Palestine endures today.

Plenty of ordinary zionists do believe Palestinians have the same right to self determination and the efforts of previous generations of Israeli politicians demonstrate that they thought it was consistent with zionism too. What the major parties believe now is important politically right now but it doesn't define zionism.

I don't even know what 'it isn't what the books say' means. Which books, what do they say, who has the authority to dismiss them?

This is a complete distortion of zionism, which is at its heart the belief in the self determination of the Jewish people in Israel. You are layering modern manifestations of political Zionism for your own political agenda. As you have clearly set out in your post.

Obviously Israel's government is zionist and various political parties in Israel are zionist. It would be a complete nonsense for them not to be. It doesn't mean zionism is the government of Israel. In fact it would be entirely consistent with zionism to be resolutely opposed to the government if you believed they were putting the state of Israel at risk.

Sorry autocorrect changed the party name to “Othman Yehudit Party”
Should read “Otzma Yehudit Party “

The ruling Zionist parties in Israel don’t agree that Palestinians have a right to a state, or equal rights, and at least one of them view Palestinians as inherently enemies of Israel and therefore should be forcibly expelled.

This is the political reality of Zionism. It isn’t what the books say.

It is a bit like saying why would a Marxist communist believe that a party official should get a lavish lifestyle when there is nothing in the essence of from each according to their ability and to each according to their needs that indicates any kind of socio-economic class hierarchy surviving the grand proletariat revolution?!

We all know that the paper ideals isn’t as pretty when it is applied to human beings and genocides can be the outcome of such grand social upheavals.

What on earth has zionism got to do with attitudes to the current Israeli government?

Israel’s government believes they are Zionist and are currently acting according to Zionist ideology and principles.

A) Netanyahu’s party, the Likud party, is a coalition founded in 1973 of several staunchly Zionist parties.

B) Smotrich is the leader of the Religious Zionist Party

C) Ben Gvir is the leader of Othman Yehudit Party, which is also a Religious Zionist party but based specifically on the Zionist ideology of Rabbi Kahane

Like it or not, Israel’s government is the face of Zionism to the Palestinians and the rest of the world. They are the reality of Zionism currently being put into practice by self proclaimed Zionist leaders, instead of the ideals and theory of Zionism.

Now, while they do have some ideological differences, it is a fact that these are the elected leaders of Zionist parties, voted in by Zionists that are destroying Gaza and announcing annexation of the West Bank.

So, yes Zionism has a lot to do with the government of Israel.

Yes I can read! Why would a zionist not believe in the right of Palestinians to a homeland? There is nothing in the essence of zionism, which is about self determination for Jews, not excluding the same right for others, which precludes that. Some zionists may be more extreme but that doesn't mean zionism has to be.

I'm very well aware of this. Its a point I have made many times. I don't know what relevance it has here though, What on earth has zionism got to do with attitudes to the current Israeli government?

@SharonEllis
See here for article on how while the majority of British Jews may identify as Zionist only a tiny minority approve of Israel’s government:
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/were-largely-zionists-but-that-doesnt-stop-us-rowing-over-israel-v38h7c2d

“The data suggest there has been an increase in the diaspora’s connection to Israel since October 7, although most UK Jews disagree with senior Israeli politicians. JPR’s report, from a July 2024 survey of 4,500 adult British Jews, found just 12 per cent approved of Benjamin Netanyahu, and 5 per cent of his far-right colleagues Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir.
In comparison, 40 per cent approved of opposition leader Yair Lapid.
Irrespective of political differences, UK Jews have rallied together in the campaign to bring the hostages home. While in Israel the issue has sparked division – with hostage families at the centre of heated debates in the Knesset and mass protests – in Britain, the campaign has been a unifying force. Synagogues have incorporated prayers for the hostages and more than 100 shuls joined the Board of Deputies’ “adopt a hostage” initiative.”

Yes, some of the 15 quotes do illustrate the simple point of Zionism= homeland in Israel as you have assertedL However, most of these indicate it is more than Zionism= homeland in Israel alone.

One said they were not Zionist until Oct 7th, associating Zionism with the Gaza war, war crimes and all, as necessary for a safe Jewish homeland.

One said “Not anymore” as in they were Zionist until the Gaza war, implying that the manner in which Israel has fought the war (war crimes) is inextricably linked in their mind to being Zionist.

Two of the 15 quotes that stated they were Zionists said they also believed in the right of the Palestinians to a state of Palestine, that they were pro-peace & pro diplomatic solution so the war in Gaza is not just and, for them, contrary to being a Zionist. One stated this by referring to J street.

Several quotes were on the theme of how the definition of Zionism isn’t what they grew up with/has changed/is no longer useful.

In addition, a full 14% of Jewish respondents stated they were not Zionists, with 8% unsure if they were or not.

Thank you for the article. Even though it was a poll of less than 300 people those quotes illustrate my point very nicely. I think a slightly larger proportion in the UK identify as zionists. The concept of zionism long pre-dates the existence of the World Zionist Organisation and exists alongside it.

Zionism is a lot more than ‘simply believing in a Jewish homeland in Israel’

While it is true the vast majority of Jews consider themselves Zionists, the vast majority also define Zionism in a myriad of different ways.

See this survey where the Jewish readers of the Pittsburgh Jewish Chronicle all seem to have personal ideas on Zionism; as 15 individual comments indicate:
https://jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com/chronicle-poll-results-zionism/

Every statement regarding Zionism submitted as a comment either contradicts or omits key parts of the “official” definition of Zionism established by the World Zionist Organisation.

So that is a bit of a pickle to be in when you’re trying to assert that Zionism is ‘simply’ this or that.

There is nothing simple about it, and many Jewish people are antiZionist and also not antisemitic.

I would suggest you give up your consistent allegations on these threads where you correlate antiZionism with antisemitism.

Thank you, I'll read it later.

But the parallels in the history are very weak
I don't think you fully understand it tbh.

This article may provide a better insight.
https://www.npr.org/2024/03/14/1233395830/ireland-pro-palestinian

But the parallels in the history are very weak. Its got much more to do with a misunderstanding of the the idea of Israel as a coloniser, which it obviously is not in any sense that is similar to the history of the English in Ireland. And that is where the antisemitism comes in.
This is very good on the problems with seeing Israel as a coloniser

www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

We could each cherry pick examples of Irish people who were anti semitic and those who stood in solidarity of Jewish people, but the fact is Ireland’s action on Gaza has got little to do with Israel and mostly to do having empathy with the Palestinians due to parallels in our history.

Which has been explained many times. At the end of the day, Ireland was just among the first to criticise Israel, its position is becoming more common now. And the Israeli administration are accusing many of these allies of “supporting anti semitism” just because they are critical of what’s happening in Gaza.

Do the links show evidence of current Irish government anti-semitic policies?

(If they do I’d PM, but unsure at the moment of what exactly the links contain, and I don’t have much free time either.)

Yes theres information on there and on Holocaust Education Ireland but I came across her because they named a bridge in Cork City after her a few years ago .