Israel committing genocide in Gaza, world’s top scholars on the crime say

The word "children" crops up a lot on these threads and Hamas, who specialise in psychological warfare, know exactly what buttons to press by flooding X/Insta accounts with photos of suffering infants. It's perhaps not surprising that Mumsnet amplifies Hamas's narrative of victimhood, since such images are bound to elicit a visceral "Just make it STOP!" reaction.

So many posts on CITME portray Gaza as the child and Israel as the adult, as though what happened on 7/10 was the natural response of an abused child that just needs placing under more tender care, and as though only the "adult" (Israel) can be expected to behave responsibly.

Questions about what could possibly have made Gazans "so angry" completely overlook a society in which Hamas adherents are rewarded, there are strong incentives (both financial and heavenly) to kill Jews, and a death-cult ideology into which everyone is indoctrinated from a young age, where Jew-killing (or worse) elevates the perpetrator to celebrity status.

It is impossible for us to grasp all that, which is why Hamas's DARVO ("Oh, but we just wanted to be heard!") approach has worked so well on the liberal West. It explains things in terms we can get our heads round. Believing that Israel can somehow "stop the cycle of radicalism" is, to put it mildly, naive.

Of course it is profoundly distressing to see and hear the suffering of children in wartime. There's never been a war in which such images, both real and fake, have proliferated and become viral. I wonder what would happen if Israel were to share the intimate videos of the murders, rapes, tortures, mutilations and live burnings that took place on 7/10. No doubt these would also stick in our minds for ever.

They don't do this, obviously, out of respect for the dead and their families, and I sometimes wonder if people actually have any idea what happened. I've seen posters talk about it as though a few teenagers at a party (a party they shouldn't have been at in the first place; how dare they have fun next to their suffering neighbours held in open cages!!) were shot at from a distance...

War is abominable, and to be avoided at all costs, not least because SPOILER ALERT CHILDREN DIE IN THEM!!! And wars are usually fought for all kinds of bogus political reasons, such as WW1. But if ever a country was justified in going to war, it's Israel. (Or "Isreal" as some people prefer to call it.)

(edited to fix some weird formatting shit that punctuation creates in posts!)

But the land was theirs in the sense that people lived and worked on that land. Their whole lives were on that land. And then they were told they couldn’t live there anymore because someone else had bought it. There was significant investment into that land and suddenly the new arrivals were thriving whilst the people who had lived there for years faced extreme poverty. Again, I’m not saying anything illegal was going on necessarily (I don’t know what happened in every case at this time). But the people on that land were there, living, working and then that was all gone. That’s going to cause anger and resentment and in that context, the poor didn’t have agency over what happened and I’m sure that added to the anger they felt.

Similarly, they didn’t have agency when the B Agreement went back on the Brits promise for Palestine to be for the Arabs that lived there already (as nationalism took hold in that area). Suddenly, it wasn’t and that would create resentment as people felt their culture and traditions were threatened by a large number of immigrants who suddenly were being promised the same land for a totally different state.

Again, I’m not saying the Jewish immigrants did anything wrong by moving to the area the Brits had ‘given’ them, or investing in that land or wanting a safe place to live. But the reason agency isn’t relevant to a lot of people in that area at the time is being they were controlled by the Ottoman Empire/brits and the nationalism that grew as they began to identify as Palestinians (rather than just Arabs) was in direct conflict with the plans the Brits and Zionists had at that time. Not all of this is saying one side was right or wrong or placing blame on one side of another but it is important to understand where all this hatred comes from.

If you read about the revolts, for example, you see that all sides committed horrendous acts - Arabs killed Jewish people, Brits used Arabs as human shields and then ran them over when they were finished, the Zionist ‘special night squad’ tortured Arabs. No one comes out looking particularly great and decades later we are still seeing that same hatred for the other bubbling away.

I think Palestinians should be in Gaza and the WB and it should be left to them (with support, investment and guidance from suitable countries) to find a way forward. Obviously with the caveat that extremism would need to be carefully dealt with/monitored. Re reparations, I think that would be suitable but I don’t think we then have to look back at other incidents unless we want to look at all historical injustices across alll countries. But I’m not sure there’s enough money in the world to make up for the past!

I understand your comments re agency and I do think there’s a danger in slipping into the victim narrative about everything that’s happened and remove accountability which isn’t right. But it is also important to note that there are key moments in history when the Arabs/palestinians didn’t have agency and that contributed to this awful situation.

I think we agree on a few things but just look at it with different starting points. I think that Palestinian people for nearly two decades have lived at the mercy of a terrorist government and that has also meant oppression from Israel. They have lacked autonomy because of this.

How much autonomy would you feel you had if you need a permit to build on your own land
or if you can’t speak out against your government for fear of being killed
or if your local hospital only has power for part of the day
or if your home is violently taken by settlers whilst the police/army watch
or if Hamas use your home or office for terrorist activity
or if you can’t access your own farmland without permission
This doesn’t then mean they lack autonomy when they resort to violence. But it does help explain why violence was tempting. And if we focus on that, maybe we can stop it at least minimise more violence. That would then mean fewer Palestinian and Israeli casualties.

I am genuinely interested in your opinions:@Lolapusht@CaramelPecanand similar others.

For me and my Jewish side of family, as well as a lot of our friends and community, the turning point was watching videos such as Hind Rajab. It was a basic sense of human decency to have empathy for this tiny child, and not ‘whatabout’ it or twist yourself to excuse it, or dismiss it as fake news. There comes a point where being on the right side of history is more important than anything else.

Of course it’s important for us to have a Jewish state but not like this. I just don’t think I can be the same again, as a mother, after listening to the voice of a tiny child being killed by grown men hiding in a tank. And I’m afraid to say that if you can watch that video and listen to that child and still excuse it then you too are on the wrong side of history.

I am genuinely interested in your opinions:@Lolapusht@CaramelPecanand similar others.

For me and my Jewish side of family, as well as a lot of our friends and community, the turning point was watching videos such as Hind Rajab. It was a basic sense of human decency to have empathy for this tiny child, and not ‘whatabout’ it or twist yourself to excuse it, or dismiss it as fake news. There comes a point where being on the right side of history is more important than anything else.

Of course it’s important for us to have a Jewish state but not like this. I just don’t think I can be the same again, as a mother, after listening to the voice of a tiny child being killed by grown men hiding in a tank. And I’m afraid to say that if you can watch that video and listen to that child and still excuse it then you too are on the wrong side of history.

Yes it is very interesting how we got here

The pioneerss of today's Jewish settlers, who currently terrorize the Palestinians in the occupied Gaza, West Bank and Jerusalem, committed horrific terrorist acts in the 1930s and 1940s. Founders of Zionist Israeli regime used terrorism as a political weapon in the Middle East. After the creation of Israel, their actions became official Israeli state policy of terror as evidenced in the numerous massacres committed by the Israeli army and the violence perpetrated against the Palestinian people. Long before Palestinian resistance groups like Hamas picked up arms against the Israeli occupation, a plethora of Jewish militias were bombing and shooting dead British officials and Palestinian Arabs.
According to US Department of Justice, “JEWISH TERRORISM AGAINST BRITISH AND ARABS did contribute heavily to the removal of the british from palestine, the abandonment of the league of nations mandate and the creation of a Jewish state of Israel”. It cites three groups - THE HAGANAH, THE IRGUN, AND THE LOHAMEI HERUT(LEHI), THEIR MILITARY AND PARAMILITARY GROUPS. John Lois Peeke, an American military expert, also writes that Zionist terrorism was at the core of the idea of Israel. “Jewish terrorism against British and Arabs did contribute heavily to the removal of the British from Palestine, the abandonment of the League of Nations mandate and the creation of a Jewish state of Israel,” he wrote in his book Jewish-Zionist Terrorism and the Establishment of Israel.
The British historical researcher and author, Thomas Suarez, in his book “State of Terror: How Terrorism Created Modern Israel” says “they engaged in an unrelenting litany of infrastructure bombings, mass
killings, and massacres of Palestinian villagers. Equally, they committed systematic acts of terrorism directed against British Mandate officials, oil refinery facilities, colonial railways, police vessels and infrastructure. Fighting the British served the Zionist claim that they were fighting a “war of liberation” against a colonial power, which suited their public relations in the West, especially in the USA.”
The Jewish Agency in Palestine, an offshoot of the World Zionist Organization, and founded in 1929orchestrated these efforts during the Mandate period. David Ben-Gurion, later to become Israel’s first
Prime Minister, served as the chairman of the Agency’s Executive Committee. It was chargedwith resettling Jews in Palestine. It had a “defense” force, the MILITARY wing
Haganah, and a strike force, the Palmach. The Haganah engaged in anti-British and anti-Palestinian terrorism together with other terrorist organizations, the Irgun and Lehi.
David Ben-Gurion founded Hagana which raised the slogan “Judaea was lost by blood and fire and will rise again by blood and fire. During World War II, hundreds of Haganah members enlisted in the British army to help Britain in its war against Nazi Germany and her allies. This gave them valuable military experience and enabled them to amass large hoards of weapons. At war's end, and in order to hasten the creation of a Jewish state, members of the Haganah and their elite units, called the Palmach, numbering over 60,000 male and female fighters began to carry out terrorist operations against British military and civilian outposts throughout Palestine. They launched a regular offensive to clear the Arab settlements.
In 1943, Menachem Begin, a Polish Jew, arrived in Palestine, having defected from the Polish Army. Begin immediately joined the Irgun, and advanced to command Irgun in a very short period of time. There were three basic tenets of Irgun ideology: (1) All Jews had a right to enter Palestine; (2) Only active retaliation would deter the Arabs; (3) Only Jewish armed force would ensure the Jewish State. For instance, in July 1946, Irgun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, where the British administration headquarters were located, killing 92 people. to destroy the secret documents which would have linked the Jewish Agency and Ben- Gurion to Haganah terrorism.” On April 1, 1948 an Irgun unit totally destroyed the Arab village of DIR YASSEN outside Jerusalem killing two-hundred and fifty people. The organization was was named as a terror group by the UN, the US and the UK. But despite such a strong censure, Begin later formed Herut, a right-wing Israeli political party. Begin went on to became the sixth prime minister of Israel in 1977. Herut, alongside other prominent leaders of Lehi terror group, later merged into the Likud Party of incumbent Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Another underground Jewish terrorist group, Lohamey Heruth Israel (fighters for the freedom of Israel) or Lehi, was formed under the leadership of Avraham Stern and came to be perceived by conventional eyes as the most violent and unrestrained terrorist organization of the modern era. Whereas the Haganah acted as an undergroupnd militia and the Irgun as an underground army, Lehi focused on the assassinations of significant British officials, the most notable being the murder of the British ambassador in Egypt. The Jewish Agency protected these terrorist groups whenever the British asked for the Agency’s help in controlling their violence. Most Israelis viewed these groups and their members as the most dedicated, sacrificial, and effective contributors to the Zionist cause.

The Jewish Agency developed Jewish settler “hiking parties” to guide Zionist forces in their ethniccleansing of Palestinians and land seizure. Moreover, in their effort to increase Jewish settlers in Palestine, the Zionists developed campaigns to encourage American Jews to make Aliyah (immigration to Israel). Today, there are nearly 600,000 US citizens living in the West Bankalone. The Zionists also sought to populate Palestine with surviving European Jewish orphans. These children could be easily socialized into the Zionist narrative and provide a ready-made second generation to sustain the transformation of Palestine. Thousands of Jewish children were forcibly removed from the adoptive families that had saved them when their parents perished years earlier, the kidnappings sometimes assisted by these Jewish groups. Suarez writes that Zionists blocked American and European resettlement efforts of Jewish victims of Nazi Germany to places other thanPalestine. Terrorism would be used to force European Jews to move to Palestine after the war and to prevent Jews in Palestine from leaving.

I dont think I agree that Palestinians were forced to give away their land. The land wasnt theirs. There was no country called Palestine. People owned their houses, and much property was owned by rich absenteee Arab landlords. I think its more fair to say that they were forced to move due to a war they started. The ones that didn't move are still there, citizens of Israel. It didn't have to be this way.

I agree its a festering wound that needs dealing with as part of a peace process. I don't believe they should have right of return, I believe they should make a new life elsewhere as many millions displaced by war have always done. I do think reparations should be considered. But then I think- what about reparations for all the Jews expelled from all over the ME? Do they get reparations too?

What I really object to on here is the constant writing of Palestinian agency out of the position we now see. Palestinian decisions, along with Israeli, got us here.

This is just the coloniser/Imperialist viewpoint. It’s like when coloniser nations used to criticise and stereotype those in India or Africa. Essentially, these are not justifications for what happened in the Nakba or what is happening in the West Bank.

I dont think I agree that Palestinians were forced to give away their land. The land wasnt theirs. There was no country called Palestine. People owned their houses, and much property was owned by rich absenteee Arab landlords. I think its more fair to say that they were forced to move due to a war they started. The ones that didn't move are still there, citizens of Israel. It didn't have to be this way.

I agree its a festering wound that needs dealing with as part of a peace process. I don't believe they should have right of return, I believe they should make a new life elsewhere as many millions displaced by war have always done. I do think reparations should be considered. But then I think- what about reparations for all the Jews expelled from all over the ME? Do they get reparations too?

What I really object to on here is the constant writing of Palestinian agency out of the position we now see. Palestinian decisions, along with Israeli, got us here.

I dont think I agree that Palestinians were forced to give away their land. The land wasnt theirs. There was no country called Palestine. People owned their houses, and much property was owned by rich absenteee Arab landlords. I think its more fair to say that they were forced to move due to a war they started. The ones that didn't move are still there, citizens of Israel. It didn't have to be this way.

I agree its a festering wound that needs dealing with as part of a peace process. I don't believe they should have right of return, I believe they should make a new life elsewhere as many millions displaced by war have always done. I do think reparations should be considered. But then I think- what about reparations for all the Jews expelled from all over the ME? Do they get reparations too?

What I really object to on here is the constant writing of Palestinian agency out of the position we now see. Palestinian decisions, along with Israeli, got us here.

I think immigration is slightly different to what happened here though - again, I’m not saying Israel shouldn’t exist or believe it should be destroyed/moved/changed. I am pro-Israel in the sense of its existence and its people. But Palestinians were forced to give over their land to people who wanted their own state. Neither side wanted the other to be there. And it’s easy to say one side was violent and the other peaceful but from the Palestinians perspective, someone else gave their land to a group of people who didn’t want to coexist either and their arrival had an impact on Palestinians lives. They were there and someone else came along and suddenly that land was no longer theirs. It’s a different type of attack (from their perspective) that the original Jewish immigrants aren’t to blame for or need to apologise for - they rightfully wanted a place to feel safe. But, in hindsight, if that had maybe been managed more carefully, we could be dealing with a totally different political landscape. But we are not, so we have to keep questioning how the two sides need to change their trajectory.

Well my original source for this area of history was my 80++ year old father, I have given you back up sources what in particular do you wish to deny? What part of history would you like me to change?
by the way I too studied history in college, nothing special and I would not consider it would make me an expert on all matters historical

The piece about Israel poisoning Palestinian land during the 1970s under Golda Meir would be common knowledge

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence

History, you should read some

Yes it is very interesting how we got here

The pioneerss of today's Jewish settlers, who currently terrorize the Palestinians in the occupied Gaza, West Bank and Jerusalem, committed horrific terrorist acts in the 1930s and 1940s. Founders of Zionist Israeli regime used terrorism as a political weapon in the Middle East. After the creation of Israel, their actions became official Israeli state policy of terror as evidenced in the numerous massacres committed by the Israeli army and the violence perpetrated against the Palestinian people. Long before Palestinian resistance groups like Hamas picked up arms against the Israeli occupation, a plethora of Jewish militias were bombing and shooting dead British officials and Palestinian Arabs.
According to US Department of Justice, “JEWISH TERRORISM AGAINST BRITISH AND ARABS did contribute heavily to the removal of the british from palestine, the abandonment of the league of nations mandate and the creation of a Jewish state of Israel”. It cites three groups - THE HAGANAH, THE IRGUN, AND THE LOHAMEI HERUT(LEHI), THEIR MILITARY AND PARAMILITARY GROUPS. John Lois Peeke, an American military expert, also writes that Zionist terrorism was at the core of the idea of Israel. “Jewish terrorism against British and Arabs did contribute heavily to the removal of the British from Palestine, the abandonment of the League of Nations mandate and the creation of a Jewish state of Israel,” he wrote in his book Jewish-Zionist Terrorism and the Establishment of Israel.
The British historical researcher and author, Thomas Suarez, in his book “State of Terror: How Terrorism Created Modern Israel” says “they engaged in an unrelenting litany of infrastructure bombings, mass
killings, and massacres of Palestinian villagers. Equally, they committed systematic acts of terrorism directed against British Mandate officials, oil refinery facilities, colonial railways, police vessels and infrastructure. Fighting the British served the Zionist claim that they were fighting a “war of liberation” against a colonial power, which suited their public relations in the West, especially in the USA.”
The Jewish Agency in Palestine, an offshoot of the World Zionist Organization, and founded in 1929orchestrated these efforts during the Mandate period. David Ben-Gurion, later to become Israel’s first
Prime Minister, served as the chairman of the Agency’s Executive Committee. It was chargedwith resettling Jews in Palestine. It had a “defense” force, the MILITARY wing
Haganah, and a strike force, the Palmach. The Haganah engaged in anti-British and anti-Palestinian terrorism together with other terrorist organizations, the Irgun and Lehi.
David Ben-Gurion founded Hagana which raised the slogan “Judaea was lost by blood and fire and will rise again by blood and fire. During World War II, hundreds of Haganah members enlisted in the British army to help Britain in its war against Nazi Germany and her allies. This gave them valuable military experience and enabled them to amass large hoards of weapons. At war's end, and in order to hasten the creation of a Jewish state, members of the Haganah and their elite units, called the Palmach, numbering over 60,000 male and female fighters began to carry out terrorist operations against British military and civilian outposts throughout Palestine. They launched a regular offensive to clear the Arab settlements.
In 1943, Menachem Begin, a Polish Jew, arrived in Palestine, having defected from the Polish Army. Begin immediately joined the Irgun, and advanced to command Irgun in a very short period of time. There were three basic tenets of Irgun ideology: (1) All Jews had a right to enter Palestine; (2) Only active retaliation would deter the Arabs; (3) Only Jewish armed force would ensure the Jewish State. For instance, in July 1946, Irgun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, where the British administration headquarters were located, killing 92 people. to destroy the secret documents which would have linked the Jewish Agency and Ben- Gurion to Haganah terrorism.” On April 1, 1948 an Irgun unit totally destroyed the Arab village of DIR YASSEN outside Jerusalem killing two-hundred and fifty people. The organization was was named as a terror group by the UN, the US and the UK. But despite such a strong censure, Begin later formed Herut, a right-wing Israeli political party. Begin went on to became the sixth prime minister of Israel in 1977. Herut, alongside other prominent leaders of Lehi terror group, later merged into the Likud Party of incumbent Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Another underground Jewish terrorist group, Lohamey Heruth Israel (fighters for the freedom of Israel) or Lehi, was formed under the leadership of Avraham Stern and came to be perceived by conventional eyes as the most violent and unrestrained terrorist organization of the modern era. Whereas the Haganah acted as an undergroupnd militia and the Irgun as an underground army, Lehi focused on the assassinations of significant British officials, the most notable being the murder of the British ambassador in Egypt. The Jewish Agency protected these terrorist groups whenever the British asked for the Agency’s help in controlling their violence. Most Israelis viewed these groups and their members as the most dedicated, sacrificial, and effective contributors to the Zionist cause.

The Jewish Agency developed Jewish settler “hiking parties” to guide Zionist forces in their ethniccleansing of Palestinians and land seizure. Moreover, in their effort to increase Jewish settlers in Palestine, the Zionists developed campaigns to encourage American Jews to make Aliyah (immigration to Israel). Today, there are nearly 600,000 US citizens living in the West Bankalone. The Zionists also sought to populate Palestine with surviving European Jewish orphans. These children could be easily socialized into the Zionist narrative and provide a ready-made second generation to sustain the transformation of Palestine. Thousands of Jewish children were forcibly removed from the adoptive families that had saved them when their parents perished years earlier, the kidnappings sometimes assisted by these Jewish groups. Suarez writes that Zionists blocked American and European resettlement efforts of Jewish victims of Nazi Germany to places other thanPalestine. Terrorism would be used to force European Jews to move to Palestine after the war and to prevent Jews in Palestine from leaving.