Israel committing genocide in Gaza, world’s top scholars on the crime say

I share your concern about the conflation (!!!!!!! that word again!!!!!!! 😜) of "Muslim" with "radical Islam" ... to the point where I started a thread about it, shocked that it seemed a lot of people apparently couldn't tell the difference.

I suppose my views on MN are very much shaped by the "discussions" on here for at least a year after 7/10. Maybe I am naive, and I am certainly clumsy on social media (I have no FB/X/Insta profile). But the gaslighting and hatred of Israel and the Jewish people in the immediate aftermath of 7/10 left me stunned and I continue to be wary of stories that feed into this, because I am not sure who is disseminating them. I am not a naturally paranoid person, but there was so much bullying and perverse censorship that I became anxious about Hamas actively controlling the narrative around the whole situation.

Of course there are questions to be asked about the way Israel has responded to the invasion/atrocities/whatever you want to call it (I too search for adequate words). But there seems to be something else going on here.

For example, on another thread (that I can't be arsed dealing with), yet again someone has mentioned the IDF accidentally shooting Israeli hostages - as proof that they will just shoot anything. That seems a perverse interpretation of a tragedy that surely any compassionate human being would view differently. Except... it's the IDF, so hey ho, call for the death of every single one of them from the stage of Glastonbury, why not?! - to rounds of applause, why not?!

I just can't imagine the same abuse being heaped upon Muslims as a fashion statement?

I didn’t see the post. I recommend watching Dr Gabor Mate speaking on ‘The right of self defence - but against who?’ He talks about how the phrase can be twisted to justify power against the powerless when there is a lack of context.

Thank you. I try to explain my perspective clearly as I feel strongly that you can be pro-Israel in its existence and its people but very anti Israel in its current actions (and its historical actions towards Palestinians). I think the emotion (frustration/anger/sadness) people display towards the situation is very understandable because of the level of pain and suffering.

As @Wedonttalkaboutboris has said, Israel are being investigated for genocide. The Israeli government use genocidal rhetoric. The level of death and destruction in Gaza is horrendous and the use of starvation as a tactic of war is unforgivable. I try to keep my reasoning clear and try not to get personal as I think there are a huge number on the pro Palestinian who are not antisemitic or jumping on a bandwagon or just absorbing Hamas propaganda and I want that to be made clear so that debate doesn’t go round in circles.

Yes, the rise in antisemitism is definitely a huge concern and there is no doubt that some of the information out there is very much coming from a place of hatred rather than concern. I am not by any means minimising the threat and violence Jewish people face and feel angry that people show such hatred towards the wrong people in this conflict.

I believe in the current UK context though, the immigration narrative, the burning of hotels/violent protests, the rise in Reform voters (potentially) and the flag flying plus the rise of Islamophobic attacks/the hatred shown towards Muslim people or people perceived to be Muslim is a huge concern for me and the direction we are going in as a country. I think that growing up in our time (assuming we are all within a certain age bracket) makes us sadly much more likely to default to Islamophobia because of the rise in radical Islam in our lifetimes and I think that has been a terrible burden on Muslim people and people perceived to be Muslim. I think that is a bias/form of racism that I am very conscious of /worried about at the moment.

There is no doubt there is huge relish. Im glad you don't share it

I actually think the complexity of the Jewish community’s response is rooted in generational trauma- centuries of persecution, pogroms, and of course the Holocaust. That trauma gets carried forward in families and shapes how threat and safety are perceived. So when some Jewish people hear the word genocide applied to Israel, it hits a raw nerve. It must feel like history being inverted- the descendants of victims accused of the very crime that scarred their identity. That doesn’t make the accusation invalid, but it does explain why the emotional response is so heightened.

I really disagree that this is about ‘relishing’ in labelling genocide- it’s about describing what’s actually happening. The term exists because mass civilian destruction, forced displacement, and the deliberate targeting of conditions of survival are crimes under international law.

Genocide scholars and the ICJ are raising it because the evidence fits the legal definition. That’s not antisemitism, it’s accountability. Conflating criticism of state violence with hatred of Jewish people is exactly what shuts down honest discussion.

@PinkBobby I always appreciate the way you express your views, even where we have a different perspective.

Do you feel any nervousness about the obvious rise of antisemitism in the UK since 7/10? I am anxious about who is pulling the strings here, and how. It's what motivates me to post on these threads at the risk of being ridiculed.

Sure, the holocaust was genocide and it was post holocaust that much of our understanding of genocide was formulated. The desire to prove that the Jewish nation is perpetuating genocide taps straight into one of the major strands of modern antisemitism which is to exceptionalise Israel and the Jews, to see Israel as a colonial enterprise whicg inverts the oppressed/oppressor. I think the relish with which people go down this route is horrifying. As you say, what is happening in this war is hortific enough without adding this extra element. I think you do have to question why people wish to do it. When you see the accopanying attacks on Jewish people around the world then antisemitism is comlletely undeniable. You have to join the dots. Its not coincidence.

So many children have been killed that searching one name often brings up several different kids of different ages- all with the same name.

I’m interested in your link between using the word genocide and antisemitism. Do you mind explaining more why you think this is the case (rather than it being used because various orgs are calling it that/people are just horrified and that word seems fitting).

I think the holocaust is unique in so many ways that comparison is pointless. Again, I think people do it to try and stress how awful they see the Gaza situation being but it’s not a comparison I think works. I wouldn’t compare Gaza to other horrific acts like what happened in Cambodia or in Nigeria either - each has its own horrific details and comparing and almost ranking them seems pointless and beyond distasteful. I think we can agree that what is going on in Gaza is unacceptable and that should be enough. Personally, I don’t think a comparison should be needed to evidence that fact.

Yes I think there is something in what you say, though I do think the relish in calling it a genocide is unequivocally laced with antisemitism. Thank you for being clear you are not comparing it to the holocaust but holocaust inversion has been rife, including on this board.

What was different about 7/10 was that outside the Jewish community the horror was rather muted. People were not reaching for a word to reflect the horror. If they weren't celebrating or justifying they were mostly looking away. Everyone really needs to listen to Jewish people when they talk about their experience of the aftermath.

I have a lot of autism in my wider family and always remember the case of the autistic man who was walking to his special needs school, the IDF cornered him and shot him as his teacher pleaded with them to leave him alone.

The scary thing is when I just went to Google it to get a link it turns out that the IDF have killed so many disabled men that I had to scroll and scroll to find the right story. A man with down syndrome, a man who was a double amputee, an intellectually disabled man shot in the neck in a hospital(!!), the stories go back years and years.

I feel slightly differently in that I think a lot of people are so horrified by what is going on, they want to use a word to describe it that conveys the horror/suffering/pain. I’m stealing the words of Sands KC but there’s a cultural definition of genocide that links with something we should never let happen again. To be clear, I’m not comparing it the Holocaust. I’m just using that phrasing in its basic sense.

Similarly, when I describe the atrocities on 7/10, I often pause to work out what adjective/noun is suitable to capture what happened that day and I think the same is true for the suffering now in Gaza - people want to stress how horrific it is and genocide is a culturally a word that people feel fits the actions and rhetoric of the Israel govt.

I think it’s good to keep in mind that SA have brought a case to the ICJ and it is a very real possibility that Israel will be found guilty. Wiping Gaza out on 8/10 would’ve made it an easy case, doing it over a prolonged period with the cover of war is less easy to try but still as disgusting.

Like you, I hope it comes to an end soon and the crimes committed (war crimes/crimes against humanity/genocide) by nay involved party are recognised.

One of the images burned in my brain is of the 4 children in 2014 - Mohammad Ramiz Bakr, 11, Ahed Atef Bakr and Zakariya Ahed Bakr, both 10, and Ismail Mahmoud Bakr, 9. They were killed when they were hit by explosive rounds as they played on the beach. Three of them died as they tried to flee the beach after the first child was killed.

There have been thousands of innocent civilians murdered by the IDF, thousands imprisoned without trial, people raped and tortured - all before October 7th!

No one wants to see women and children suffer in wartime

I don't understand why people keep repeating this? It doesn't make it true. From my post yesterday, a small selection of the people who really do want to see the death and suffering of the most vulnerable. You can speak for yourself and say that you don't want to see suffering but unfortunately that isn't a universal feeling and repeating falsehoods doesn't change that.

On the second most watched TV channel in Israel they call those dead children terrosists and celebrate their deaths. Rabbi Eliyahu Mali said The Torah is saying: ‘You shall not let a soul remain alive’… Today he’s a baby, tomorrow he’s a boy, tomorrow he’s a warrior.” Former Knesset member Moshe Feiglin stated explicitly: “Every child, every infant in Gaza is an enemy… the baby you feed with milk today will slaughter your children in fifteen years.” There was that lovely Israeli Knesset member Meirav Ben Ari who said The children of Gaza have brought this on themselves.

20,000+ dead children! 85,000 tons of explosives dropped on a civilian population. Is this proportionate? How can you justify this?

I agree. I think the obsession with genocide is more about demonising Israel and nothing to do with caring about Palestinians. It makes a good slogan and this really is a war of slogans. I think the whole idea of 'supporting' a war is a bit odd really. War is hell, absolute hell, its dirty and it requires people, mostly men to resort to their worst instincts. Sometimes wars do need to be fought though. The war against Hamas is one of those wars. That doesn't mean mistakes haven't been made. I suspect all wars involve war crimes especially when the enemy's entire raison d'etre is to commit war crimes on a vast scale. I pray it comes to an end soon.

The weird thing is, it's really not much fun being attacked here. I know I'm in the minority here (or at least appear to be). I'm not applauding the deaths of women and children, who would?! It's just that I refuse to condemn Israel for "ruthless murder" when we have no idea what is influencing their actions. I don't think it's a case of "Let's just wipe the fuckers out" because they could have done that easily within hours of 7/10. If, at some point in the future, when everyone has access to all the necessary information to make sense of things, Israel is judged to have committed genocide, then of course I will condemn it. But until then, I reserve judgement.

This is partly because the Israel-bashing happened within hours of 7/10, presumably orchestrated by Hamas since no one I know in the UK has ever given a shit about ME politics and conflicts until then. Suddenly everyone's all marching on the streets with Palestinian flags, painting swastikas and attacking Jewish businesses. I am not going to sit back and watch that happen, and I refuse to jump on the "Death! death! to the IDF" bandwagon just because it's the new way to score brownie points for social media likes.

Trump's plans to turn this whole thing into a real-estate opportunity are a different matter 😞

I really urge anyone/everyone to watch this interview re is it genocide. I think it makes the important point that even if this isn’t legally a genocide, it is still not right and war crimes and crimes against humanity are being committed. I watched it a little while ago but I think the point is made that no state has ever been found guilty of genocide so the decision to do so will be taken very seriously by the judges and will set the tone/precedent for future conflicts,

Interestingly, there is a case being tried before SA v Israel is and it’s on very similar grounds (self defence allowing acts that could be deemed genocidal and the q of intent) - it’ll be interesting to see where the judges land on the one as it could lay the groundwork for the SA case against Israel (which centres a lot on the genocidal rhetoric of Israeli politicians).

But I do think it’s important to note for people who say it is not a genocide that just because its not a genocide, that doesn’t mean that what is going on is acceptable and is something to support.

https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000010328913/when-is-it-genocide.html

You twisted someone's words and meaning. I don't see how that would change. Its a common, and very tedious, ploy on this board.

I don't think they do all necessarily 'work in genocide and international law'. That's the point. But do prove me wrong.
Also it was also a small proportion of the membership and process was not particularly transparent. I think any rational observer would of course take note of what they have said but not give it much actual weight.

Regardless of joining fees, the statement was signed by a wide group of experts who work in genocide and international law.

Sure. Can’t wait to see how these threads age.

Calling someone twisted is a personal attack when they were not doing what you were accusing them of.