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Everexpanding · 01/09/2025 10:05

I am posting these words again from Holocaust survivors protesting against what is being perpetrated in Gaza. I hope out of respect for them mumsnetters will let this post end this thread as it seems discussion is pointless
Ruth Vleeschhouwer Falak, 89, who survived the Nazi-occupation of the Netherlands as a child, said she was standing there because “in the 1930s, if Germans had stood up loudly against the Nazi party, maybe they wouldn’t have been able to do what they did to us. Speaking up is not a choice for me.”
“The saying is never again; that means never again for anybody. That’s really what we’re standing here for,” added Ilana Drukker Tokotin, 87, who spent her childhood in hiding from the Nazis.
Veronika Cohen, 80, a Holocaust survivor who was born in the ghetto in Budapest, said she had come to protest outside Yad Vashem on the day of remembrance because: “I don’t think we can remember our suffering without acknowledging the suffering of Gaza, the deaths of tens of thousands of children, the starvation that’s going on this minute, for which we are partially responsible. It occupies the same place in my heart.She acknowledged that she was in the minority in Israel when it came to speaking up about the terrible cost of the war to Palestinian life. “People here see Palestinians as the other and that’s why they have created a barrier,” she said. “They have managed not to feel their pain and I find that incomprehensible. To me, when I read the stories of their suffering in Gaza, it blends completely into how I feel about the Holocaust.Cohen’s eyes filled with tears as she recalled seeing a recent photo of a young Palestinian boy whose arms had been blown off by Israeli missile strikes in Gaza. “The news story said that when he woke up from his operation, the first thing he did was turn to his mother, and he said: ‘how will I hug you now?’ To me, that’s a Holocaust story. And that’s why we are here: to try to awaken people to their pain in any way we can.”

OP posts:
Lolapusht · 01/09/2025 10:04

Everexpanding · 01/09/2025 09:30

I would say the whole situation is very upsetting, Hamas’s actions on October 7th were disgusting I however see no attempt here to consider why Hamas exists no acknowledgment of decades of Israeli human rights violations, settlement expansion, detention without trial etc the situation has not developed in a vacuum.
Israel is currently dropping large bombs on a trapped civilian population, it has bombed civilian infrastructure deliberately and repeatedly this is not acceptable or excusable despite what people here say. It has cut off water amd blocked food and medical supplies from enering in the quantity needed to support the population. Starving people should never be tolerated

Right on cue…

Lolapusht · 01/09/2025 10:01

Twiglets1 · 01/09/2025 06:31

Hamas are never blamed apart from as an aside (of course I don't support Hamas but .... the but always being a further attack on Israel.

…and even then it’s caveated with a “this didn’t start on 7 Oct” or “what did Israel think would happen?! They had no other choice. Israel is creating generations of terrorists with its continued campaign of genocidal mania”.

This thread, apart from being particularly nasty, shows how entrenched people are. They’re unwilling to even countenance a differing version of their point. Not the opposite of their point, just a different take. No-one on this thread thinks that the situation of pregnant women in Gaza is fine. No-one. The problem comes with the solution. Some think writing to MPs to call for sanctions against Israel is going or marches is the best solution, others think releasing the hostages or Hamas surrendering is the best, and quickest, solution.

The one thing everyone agrees on is that pregnant women suffering is awful.

One section of posters is allowed to say that and the other isn’t.

SharonEllis · 01/09/2025 09:44

Everexpanding · 01/09/2025 09:30

I would say the whole situation is very upsetting, Hamas’s actions on October 7th were disgusting I however see no attempt here to consider why Hamas exists no acknowledgment of decades of Israeli human rights violations, settlement expansion, detention without trial etc the situation has not developed in a vacuum.
Israel is currently dropping large bombs on a trapped civilian population, it has bombed civilian infrastructure deliberately and repeatedly this is not acceptable or excusable despite what people here say. It has cut off water amd blocked food and medical supplies from enering in the quantity needed to support the population. Starving people should never be tolerated

Make your mind up. This thread was about the predicament of pregnant women. Now you're berating us for not discussing the roots of Hamas or the last few decades of Israeli policy. You seem to be derailing your own thread, and not for the first time!

Everexpanding · 01/09/2025 09:43

I am posting these words again from Holocaust survivors protesting against what is being perpetrated in Gaza. I hope out of respect for them mumsnetters will let this post end this thread as it seems discussion is pointless

Ruth Vleeschhouwer Falak, 89, who survived the Nazi-occupation of the Netherlands as a child, said she was standing there because “in the 1930s, if Germans had stood up loudly against the Nazi party, maybe they wouldn’t have been able to do what they did to us. Speaking up is not a choice for me.”

“The saying is never again; that means never again for anybody. That’s really what we’re standing here for,” added Ilana Drukker Tokotin, 87, who spent her childhood in hiding from the Nazis.

Veronika Cohen, 80, a Holocaust survivor who was born in the ghetto in Budapest, said she had come to protest outside Yad Vashem on the day of remembrance because: “I don’t think we can remember our suffering without acknowledging the suffering of Gaza, the deaths of tens of thousands of children, the starvation that’s going on this minute, for which we are partially responsible. It occupies the same place in my heart.She acknowledged that she was in the minority in Israel when it came to speaking up about the terrible cost of the war to Palestinian life. “People here see Palestinians as the other and that’s why they have created a barrier,” she said. “They have managed not to feel their pain and I find that incomprehensible. To me, when I read the stories of their suffering in Gaza, it blends completely into how I feel about the Holocaust.Cohen’s eyes filled with tears as she recalled seeing a recent photo of a young Palestinian boy whose arms had been blown off by Israeli missile strikes in Gaza. “The news story said that when he woke up from his operation, the first thing he did was turn to his mother, and he said: ‘how will I hug you now?’ To me, that’s a Holocaust story. And that’s why we are here: to try to awaken people to their pain in any way we can.”

OP posts:
Everexpanding · 01/09/2025 09:30

I would say the whole situation is very upsetting, Hamas’s actions on October 7th were disgusting I however see no attempt here to consider why Hamas exists no acknowledgment of decades of Israeli human rights violations, settlement expansion, detention without trial etc the situation has not developed in a vacuum.
Israel is currently dropping large bombs on a trapped civilian population, it has bombed civilian infrastructure deliberately and repeatedly this is not acceptable or excusable despite what people here say. It has cut off water amd blocked food and medical supplies from enering in the quantity needed to support the population. Starving people should never be tolerated

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 01/09/2025 08:54

SharonEllis · 01/09/2025 06:43

I've been disgusted by this thread. Its not just the childish twisting people's words, the tapping into tropes (perhaps they don't realise, its so normalised) but the underlying lack of empathy. Its a war of cardboard cut outs.

I've been disgusted by this thread.

It has been a very upsetting thread.

Twiglets1 · 01/09/2025 06:49

SharonEllis · 01/09/2025 06:43

I've been disgusted by this thread. Its not just the childish twisting people's words, the tapping into tropes (perhaps they don't realise, its so normalised) but the underlying lack of empathy. Its a war of cardboard cut outs.

Agreed.

I fail to see how it benefits anyone to twist people's words and make shit up.

It definitely doesn't benefit anyone in Gaza, it must just be satisfying in some way to the people doing it.

SharonEllis · 01/09/2025 06:43

Twiglets1 · 01/09/2025 06:30

Blame Israel.

Blame anyone that supports Israel. Use personal attacks to try to bully them into silence.

I've been disgusted by this thread. Its not just the childish twisting people's words, the tapping into tropes (perhaps they don't realise, its so normalised) but the underlying lack of empathy. Its a war of cardboard cut outs.

Twiglets1 · 01/09/2025 06:31

SharonEllis · 01/09/2025 06:28

I expect Hamas using child soldiers will only enter people's consciousness when they get killed so people can blame Israel for killing children. Hamas must not be blamed!

Hamas are never blamed apart from as an aside (of course I don't support Hamas but .... the but always being a further attack on Israel.

Twiglets1 · 01/09/2025 06:30

SharonEllis · 01/09/2025 06:17

People on this thread have lost the ability to read, to comprehend, to have more than one idea at once and to empathise or see Palestinians as complex humans. There is only one thought allowed on this thread which to blame Israel for everything.

Blame Israel.

Blame anyone that supports Israel. Use personal attacks to try to bully them into silence.

SharonEllis · 01/09/2025 06:28

CaramelPecan · 01/09/2025 02:21

If you read the article they've just done simple maths by subtracting the number of known named terrorist deaths from the IDF database, from the Hamas total death figure.

The article says itself

The intelligence sources explained that the total number of militants killed is likely higher than the number recorded in the internal database, since it does not include Hamas or PIJ operatives who were killed but could not be identified by name, Gazans who took part in fighting but were not officially members of Hamas or PIJ, nor political figures in Hamas such as mayors and government ministers whom Israel also considers legitimate targets (in violation of international law).

The article is incorrect in asserting targeting political figures is in violation of IL, as depending on the circumstances they can be as follows:

When a minister becomes a legitimate target:
Direct Participation in Hostilities (DPH):
If a minister is directly involved in military operations or decision-making that constitutes participation in hostilities, they lose their civilian status and protection for the duration of their involvement.

Effective Contribution to Military Action:
A minister's office or their actions might be considered a legitimate target if they "make an effective contribution to military action" and their destruction, capture, or neutralization would offer a definite military advantage.

Also civilians participating in hostilities:

Civilians are protected against direct attack unless, and for such time, as they directly participate in hostilities. Parties to an armed conflict must take all feasible precautions in determining whether a person is a civilian and, if that is the case, whether he or she is directly participating in hostilities.

In case of doubt, the person in question must be presumed to be a civilian and protected against direct attack. To protect civilians, combatants – and anyone directly participating in hostilities – must distinguish themselves from civilians in all military operations by wearing identifiable insignia and carrying arms openly.

Looks like the assorted terrorist groups in Gaza have been exempted from that bold bit.

Hamas is also said to have recruited around 30,000 ‘youths’ (who will be recorded as children in the casualty rate) during the war, which should make pro-Palestinians not vociferously publicly calling for Hamas to surrender sick to their stomach because it’s pretty obvious Hamas has been strengthened to continue by the global support they have had for their cause, which includes those who remove them from the equation when focusing on demonising Israel including the OP of this thread.

Do they support child soldiers, as young as 12, being used as combatants?

The argument that it’s better for civilians, including pregnant women and children, to die as human sacrifices for Hamas than evacuate them to a safe country because they may not be able to go back to their already devastated homeland for a while is fucked up enough, but to know child soldiers are being used by terrorists in a war as cannon fodder and STILL not be marching and protesting for Hamas to surrender is beyond my comprehension!

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-said-to-recruit-30000-gaza-youths-into-its-military-wing/amp/

Has there ever been a war where one side has been expected to be able to name all the dead combatants of the opposing side, in an ongoing war no less, anyway?

I expect Hamas using child soldiers will only enter people's consciousness when they get killed so people can blame Israel for killing children. Hamas must not be blamed!

SharonEllis · 01/09/2025 06:17

Twiglets1 · 01/09/2025 05:45

Where did anyone say starving women should be blamed for falling pregnant?

People on this thread have lost the ability to read, to comprehend, to have more than one idea at once and to empathise or see Palestinians as complex humans. There is only one thought allowed on this thread which to blame Israel for everything.

Twiglets1 · 01/09/2025 05:45

Stripes56 · 01/09/2025 01:36

Maybe be not this evening Sharon, but you did think it appropriate to ask us consider what blame starving women should accept in falling pregnant, when contraception has probably been unavailable.

Where did anyone say starving women should be blamed for falling pregnant?

CaramelPecan · 01/09/2025 02:29

Sorry I meant to say bit too late to edit:

The argument by people sitting in their comfy homes in peaceful suburbia in safe European countries that it’s better for civilians, including pregnant women and children, to die as human sacrifices for Hamas than evacuate them to a safe country because they may not be able to go back to their already devastated homeland for a while is fucked up enough, but to know child soldiers are being used by terrorists in a war as cannon fodder and STILL not be marching and protesting for Hamas to surrender is beyond my comprehension!

CaramelPecan · 01/09/2025 02:21

ScrollingLeaves · 01/09/2025 00:09

Here is a terrorist/civilian mortality comparison.

Israeli army database suggests at least 83% of Gaza dead were civilians
Classified intelligence from May reveals Israel believed it had killed some 8,900 militants in its attacks on Gaza, indicating a proportion of civilian slaughter with few parallels in modern warfare, a joint investigation finds.
https://www.972mag.com/israeli-intelligence-database-83-percent-civilians-militants/
That is by by Yuval Abraham
August 21, 2025
in +972 Magazine

If you read the article they've just done simple maths by subtracting the number of known named terrorist deaths from the IDF database, from the Hamas total death figure.

The article says itself

The intelligence sources explained that the total number of militants killed is likely higher than the number recorded in the internal database, since it does not include Hamas or PIJ operatives who were killed but could not be identified by name, Gazans who took part in fighting but were not officially members of Hamas or PIJ, nor political figures in Hamas such as mayors and government ministers whom Israel also considers legitimate targets (in violation of international law).

The article is incorrect in asserting targeting political figures is in violation of IL, as depending on the circumstances they can be as follows:

When a minister becomes a legitimate target:
Direct Participation in Hostilities (DPH):
If a minister is directly involved in military operations or decision-making that constitutes participation in hostilities, they lose their civilian status and protection for the duration of their involvement.

Effective Contribution to Military Action:
A minister's office or their actions might be considered a legitimate target if they "make an effective contribution to military action" and their destruction, capture, or neutralization would offer a definite military advantage.

Also civilians participating in hostilities:

Civilians are protected against direct attack unless, and for such time, as they directly participate in hostilities. Parties to an armed conflict must take all feasible precautions in determining whether a person is a civilian and, if that is the case, whether he or she is directly participating in hostilities.

In case of doubt, the person in question must be presumed to be a civilian and protected against direct attack. To protect civilians, combatants – and anyone directly participating in hostilities – must distinguish themselves from civilians in all military operations by wearing identifiable insignia and carrying arms openly.

Looks like the assorted terrorist groups in Gaza have been exempted from that bold bit.

Hamas is also said to have recruited around 30,000 ‘youths’ (who will be recorded as children in the casualty rate) during the war, which should make pro-Palestinians not vociferously publicly calling for Hamas to surrender sick to their stomach because it’s pretty obvious Hamas has been strengthened to continue by the global support they have had for their cause, which includes those who remove them from the equation when focusing on demonising Israel including the OP of this thread.

Do they support child soldiers, as young as 12, being used as combatants?

The argument that it’s better for civilians, including pregnant women and children, to die as human sacrifices for Hamas than evacuate them to a safe country because they may not be able to go back to their already devastated homeland for a while is fucked up enough, but to know child soldiers are being used by terrorists in a war as cannon fodder and STILL not be marching and protesting for Hamas to surrender is beyond my comprehension!

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-said-to-recruit-30000-gaza-youths-into-its-military-wing/amp/

Has there ever been a war where one side has been expected to be able to name all the dead combatants of the opposing side, in an ongoing war no less, anyway?

Targeting under International Humanitarian Law | How does law protect in war? - Online casebook

https://casebook.icrc.org/highlight/targeting-under-international-humanitarian-law

Stripes56 · 01/09/2025 01:36

SharonEllis · 31/08/2025 22:27

I havent been 'debating starving women' this evening. Im not sure I even know what that means.

Maybe be not this evening Sharon, but you did think it appropriate to ask us consider what blame starving women should accept in falling pregnant, when contraception has probably been unavailable.

TooBigForMyBoots · 01/09/2025 00:11

BourgeoisBabe · 31/08/2025 23:27

Despicable comment

And ignorant.

ScrollingLeaves · 01/09/2025 00:09

Lolapusht · 31/08/2025 23:16

That article doesn’t deal with a combatant:civilian mortality rate.

It discusses the total numbers which is different.

Here is a terrorist/civilian mortality comparison.

Israeli army database suggests at least 83% of Gaza dead were civilians
Classified intelligence from May reveals Israel believed it had killed some 8,900 militants in its attacks on Gaza, indicating a proportion of civilian slaughter with few parallels in modern warfare, a joint investigation finds.
https://www.972mag.com/israeli-intelligence-database-83-percent-civilians-militants/
That is by by Yuval Abraham
August 21, 2025
in +972 Magazine

IDF database suggests 83% of Gaza dead were civilians

Classified intelligence reveals Israel killed 8,900 militants by May, indicating an almost unparalleled proportion of civilian slaughter.

https://www.972mag.com/israeli-intelligence-database-83-percent-civilians-militants

BourgeoisBabe · 31/08/2025 23:27

mids2019 · 30/08/2025 13:37

Why would you choose to become pregnant in the last months in Gaza? Is it wrong saying that there is choice in childbirth and family size? I worry about a culture where women are becoming pregnant in a horrific war zone and what patriarchal pressures are being placed on them? Maybe Hamas are pleased because these poor women and children can add to their propaganda campaign?

Despicable comment

Martymcfly24 · 31/08/2025 23:24

Lolapusht · 31/08/2025 23:16

That article doesn’t deal with a combatant:civilian mortality rate.

It discusses the total numbers which is different.

Where did you get your numbers regarding civilian mortality rate?

Can I ask if you agree with the articles I posted re the criteria for famine?

Lolapusht · 31/08/2025 23:16

Everexpanding · 31/08/2025 22:03

@Lolapusht to quote you

”d but no other war has such a low combatant:civilian mortality rate.”

bullshit according to Oxfam

www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/more-women-and-children-killed-gaza-israeli-military-any-other-recent-conflict

That article doesn’t deal with a combatant:civilian mortality rate.

It discusses the total numbers which is different.

SharonEllis · 31/08/2025 22:50

@GladioliGreen and as I said before all you are interested in is insult. The idea that I am looking for entertainment is entirely a figment of your imagination. Good night.

GladioliGreen · 31/08/2025 22:44

SharonEllis · 31/08/2025 22:27

I havent been 'debating starving women' this evening. Im not sure I even know what that means.

Sorry, that should have said 'attempting to debate', to quote your goodself, Every attempt at debate is met with insult and nonsense., it's quite clear that this thread is a thread about starving women and that you would like to debate here if only someone would entertain you, that someone won't be me.

To echo what I said previously, if the purposeful starvation of pregnant women and their babies to further the Israelis governments clearly stated wish of ethnically cleansing 2 million people from their homes in Gaza disturbs you write to your representatives and let them know. Change can happen.

Everexpanding · 31/08/2025 22:34

If anyone wishes to support Palestinian civilians please write to your Mps, MEPs, to ask them to bring pressure to bear on Israel, please boycottt and protest. Free Palestine and good night

OP posts: