It's not about genocide but about winning

Not at all. The ultimate goal is to be able to live in peace without ongoing threats from the neighbor. As soon as that goal is achieved, which can happen by Gaza being disarmed and neutralized as a threat, not one more Palestinian from Gaza has to die. At least not by Israeli hand, though I can't speak for their safety from Hamas.

Point is the Gazans had no reason to engage in an 18-year terrorism campaign rather than embracing their newly gained autonomy. And seeing as they threw Fatah members from rooftops, it's a bit rich to pretend they are inextricably intertwined with Palestinians in the WB.

The simple fact is that the conflict was never about Levant Arabs aka Palestinians having a sovereign state, but about ensuring the Jews don't. They had multiple opportunities to embrace peace and a TSS, but they rejected it every time.

At this point, if they're suffering starvation, being killed etc etc, why isn't Gaza surrendering? Surely that's their best way forward.

Point is the Gazans had no reason to engage in an 18-year terrorism campaign rather than embracing their newly gained autonomy. And seeing as they threw Fatah members from rooftops, it's a bit rich to pretend they are inextricably intertwined with Palestinians in the WB.

The simple fact is that the conflict was never about Levant Arabs aka Palestinians having a sovereign state, but about ensuring the Jews don't. They had multiple opportunities to embrace peace and a TSS, but they rejected it every time.

At this point, if they're suffering starvation, being killed etc etc, why isn't Gaza surrendering? Surely that's their best way forward.

Why on earth should essentials needed to be smuggled in?

The blockade only started after Hamas was elected. And they managed to smuggle in a shitload of weapons, which raises the question why they couldn't smuggle in essentials.

The truth is that for those connected, pre-7 October Gaza was a beautiful seaside resort, replete with luxury villas and fancy malls.

As to the West Bank, what does that have anything to do with Gaza?

Well that's an interesting perspective. Explains a lot about the thread.

I don't speak for Israel nor am I privy to their internal war plans, but the way I see it is thus:

Israel has been implementing ceasefires since its inception, to the detriment of both sides. All ceasefires have ever done is kick the can further along the line, allowing the enemy to regroup and re-arm, which lead to more bloodshed.

For 18 years Israel tried to ignore Gaza and the attacks against civilians coming out from there, rationalising that it would be worse and more costly to deal with it than to mainly ignore. The events of 7 October put paid to that delusion, and now Israel has changed tactic.

It now understands that this is a war which it must win, and crucially Hamas/Gaza must lose. The only way forward ever, with any war, is for one side to be unequivocally defeated, and from there on rebuilding is possible.

As soon as Hamas/Gaza accepts defeat, lays down its weapons and releases the hostages, the acute stage of the war is over. From then, my assumption is that Israel would have some kind of long term plan of (a) deradicalisation, probably by re-education, (b) rebuilding, but with full oversight, making sure there are no tunnels, and (c) handing over the governance to a neutral Arab state.

This broad plan isn't different to how we dealt with Nazi Germany or fascist Japan post war. First there was a clear winner, then rehabilitation of the enemy.

The quicker Gaza/Hamas realises Israel is here to stay, and the most beneficial and prosperous way forward for them is to focus on their own flourishing rather than the destruction of Israel, the fewer lives will be lost.

This is a war that was foisted upon Israel, but now it has a moral duty - to its own citizens, but in the long term, also to the Gazans - to win. Hamas/Gaza can end their misery immediately by surrendering.

As you know I'm a pragmatist.

It seems clear enough to me that neither side wants a 2 state solution now or will agree to it.

Maybe in the future - medium to long term after the war ends but not short term.

Ever since 2005, Palestinians in Gaza were ruled solely by the freely elected Gazan government, aka Hamas. Any mistreatment they suffered cannot be blamed on the Jews. Unfortunately.

I can go back further when that wasn’t the case. But even in recent history, it wasn’t like there was no interest in two states.

@PinkBobby
Who controlled all border into Gaza effectively controlling its ability to export/import and become autonomous. Who provides permits to Palestinians that they need to do pretty much anything (build schools, medical facilities, water systems) and rejects them over 90% of the time? Who rips down those building if they don’t get a permit? Who allows illegal settlements and violent settler activity?

Leaving aside the first part, which was necessary for Israel in order to at least limit the number of weapons brought into Gaza, the rest is simply untrue. And even the first part was pretty relaxed up until the democratic elections when Gazans voted in the death cult named Hamas.

Israel didn't control any part of civilian infrastructure in Gaza post 2005, nor did they enter Gaza to rip down any buildings. And certainly there were no settlers there. Not even dead Jews remained in Gaza post 2005.

More against it than in favour of it even before 7/10/23 and the violent aftermath.

Thanks for your explanation

In 2018, it was 53% and 58% in favour of a two state solution (Palestinians then Israelis)

In 2020, it was 43% and 42% in favour of a two state solution (Palestinians then Israelis)

In 2023, it was down to 33% and 34%.

I know poll data isn’t perfect but I don’t think it is fair to say that there was no interest in a two state solution. It totally ignores what actual Palestinians and Israelis have said over time.

They haven’t.

Neither side seems to want it.

@Twiglets1

The Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and handing it over to the Palestinians was a huge step in the direction of complete Palestinian statehood. If only they'd seized the opportunity to build their own autonomous enclave, rather than using it as a base to attack Israel almost from day one.

The difference between Israeli antipathy to the TSS and Palestinian opposition, is Israelis aren't convinced it will bring peace. On the contrary, they rightfully suspect it will just bring Palestinian terrorism closer to home.

The majority of Israelis, and that includes much of the right, were once pro TSS if it would mean long term peace. Over the years they've come to understand that it would just bring the opposite.

Whereas the Palestinian opposition is rooted in their refusal to grant the Jews even an inch of sovereignty in the Holy Land. They don't oppose the TSS out of fear, but out of hatred.

@Twiglets1

The Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and handing it over to the Palestinians was a huge step in the direction of complete Palestinian statehood. If only they'd seized the opportunity to build their own autonomous enclave, rather than using it as a base to attack Israel almost from day one.

The difference between Israeli antipathy to the TSS and Palestinian opposition, is Israelis aren't convinced it will bring peace. On the contrary, they rightfully suspect it will just bring Palestinian terrorism closer to home.

The majority of Israelis, and that includes much of the right, were once pro TSS if it would mean long term peace. Over the years they've come to understand that it would just bring the opposite.

Whereas the Palestinian opposition is rooted in their refusal to grant the Jews even an inch of sovereignty in the Holy Land. They don't oppose the TSS out of fear, but out of hatred.