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Conflict in the Middle East

It's not about genocide but about winning

256 replies

Mikkymik · 24/08/2025 12:36

Further to my reply in the (now full) famine thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5396637-a-famine-has-been-declared-in-gaza-city?page=40&reply=146639624

I should point out that in my above post I've accepted - for argument's sake - that Israel is committing war crimes in its mission to win.

What Israel is absolutely not doing nor is it intent on doing, is genocide. Israel's aim is to win, which means disarming of Gaza and the return of the hostages. Once that happens not one more Palestinian has to die. It's not about killing a people (genocide) but about winning at all costs.

And frankly, as I said, the onus is on Gaza to surrender, seeing as they started this futile war.

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juggleit · 20/09/2025 14:00

GladioliGreen · 24/08/2025 15:43

I'd just really like it if kids could have food and medical care. If Israel are preventing sufficient food and aid from entering Gaza because they want to defeat Hamas, because they want to ethnically cleanse the region or because Netanyahu has a hard on for 'Greater Israel' I really don't care at this point. I just want to see the International community come together and make sure that this collective punishment of children ends.

The courts will decide in years to come whether or not what Israel are partaking in is genocide and I am happy to let them do that.

Don’t you think all nations would prefer not to see people in distress from war? There is a distinct difference from blocking/preventing to restricting aid (due to security reasons) for the Palestinian people.
My understating is that Israel are not obliged to send aid into a war zone but continue to do so as they have controls over borders.

The absolute brain washing of people on here with the view that Isreal are starving people is just not true. The UK Government have not accepted that genocide is taking place and I will follow there line until they say otherwise.

I personally do not see a problem with a military pushing its countries borders outwards to protect its civilians from a death cult.

ScrollingLeaves · 30/08/2025 00:09

Katiesaidthat · 29/08/2025 15:52

Bravo.

Yes, well said @TulipLavender
and it will not stop insurgency, it is not an answer.

Katiesaidthat · 29/08/2025 15:52

TulipLavender · 24/08/2025 22:53

This isnt just war.

So many people (Doctors and Humanitarian Aid Workers) though who have been to Gaza and have also worked in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen etc have said that they have never seen anything as bad as Gaza. In a war most civilians have the chance to flee to safety.

Gaza has the highest number of child amputtees in the world.
Humanitarian aid workers had to coin a new acyrnym in Gaza for wounded child, no surviving family.
Which other war have no international journalists been allowed in? - none.
Which other wars have quadcopters shooting bullets into children in tents?
Which other wars are half of pregnant women malnourished?
Which other wars have all hospital facilities been deliberately bombed and destroyed?
In which other war is baby formula being prevented from being allowed in?
In which other war have hundreds of telegram social medias been posted of the occupying army dressed in the underwear of the female civilians and filmed deliberately destroying their houses and laughing about it?
In which other wars have disabled men been attacked by dogs of the occupation soldiers and left to die?
In which war have 15 paramedics and rescue been rounded up and tied up and executed and buried in a mass grave?
In which other war have there been protests from the civilians of the occupying side about the right to rape prisoners and the discussion about the right to rape prisoners taking place on tv and in the knesset?
In which other war have the enemy forces cut off electricity, food and water to the civilians of the other side?
In which war have ambulances repeated been attacked - video evidence of ambulances being attacked and then buried which only came to light because footage from a victim murdered was found?
In which war have more than 270 journalists been killed?
In which war has evidence been found of the repeated deliberate targeting of humanitarian aid vehicles?
In which war have dogs been systematically used to maul and even rape the enemy?
In which other war have renouned surgeons been detained in prison and raped to death?
In which war have people been ziptied and bulldosed alive or bulldosed in tents?
In which war are children so psychologically damaged from the constant (with very little respite) aerial attacks and aerial noise that hear constantly that they shake with fear every night?
In which war have families been displaced and have to move 10 times?
In which war have medical workers had their family deliberately targeted?
In which war has the enemy mocked a real baby death as a fake 'doll' and alleged 'Pallywood'?
In which war have tanks driven over 300 bullets into car of a 6 year old girl on the phone to the red crescent who negotiated with the army for an ambulance to be allowed to get her and the ambulance and 2 paramedics were subsequently blown up and the army lied about not being in the area but clear evidence from satellites shows they were?
In which other war have soldiers forced medical staff to evacuate hospitals leaving premature babies to die in incubators?

In which war have the UN and all humanitarian infrastructure been so attacked and put at risk and blocked that they cant adequately function?
In which war have 80 percent of houses been destroyed?
In which war have starving people queuing for aid been routinely shot at?
In which war have 118 been killed and 760 injured after enemy forces opened fire on people seeking aid from food trucks?
In which war have numerous people including children have had to have limb amputated without anaesthesia?

Ive worked for years in international medical humanitarian organisations in some of the most insecure places in the world and i can tell you that this is not how a normal war looks. Yes, war does include some horrible things and war crimes do take place but not to this level and there is normally a level of respect for civilians and humanitarian actors, medics and structures. Its certainly not how civilised countries in the 21st century should conduct their wars.

This isn't just war - this is the worst dsytopia - a 22 month long horror - we cannot allow this to become the new norm for how war can be?

If we allow this to become just the way war is done then we as the human species deserve a very short future on this planet.

All of the above can be clearly evidenced.

Bravo.

MyNaicePlumBiscuit · 28/08/2025 16:10

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If thinking videos talking about how the Star of David is a satanic symbol makes me oversensitive then I'm oversensitive.

Zonder · 27/08/2025 07:25

Bonden · 26/08/2025 12:34

I used to support Israel. I absolutely do not now.

That must have been a tough place to come to.

Bonden · 26/08/2025 12:34

I used to support Israel. I absolutely do not now.

mouthpipette · 26/08/2025 12:25

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Weltall · 26/08/2025 11:25

FalseFlag · 26/08/2025 11:03

Agreed am I am grateful you took the time to reply with insight however I feel the families of the hostages may well be asking the same questions.

Please don't pretend you give a shit about the hostages or their families. The Facebook account you just posted is full of antisemitism.

FalseFlag · 26/08/2025 11:03

TulipLavender · 26/08/2025 11:01

This has been discussed on other threads. I heard the same and was curious so I looked into the detail of reports - including the one requested and commissioned by families of those killed on Oct 7.

They never expected it to happened, they didn't prepare for such an event and there are deep systemic institutional failings including arrogant group think.

I think we can see from the way that Israel are carrying out their military campaign and overall strategy that they are not prioritising the future safety of their civilians.

I don't think speculation about Oct 7 is helpful and it is very hurtful for many.

Agreed am I am grateful you took the time to reply with insight however I feel the families of the hostages may well be asking the same questions.

TulipLavender · 26/08/2025 11:01

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This has been discussed on other threads. I heard the same and was curious so I looked into the detail of reports - including the one requested and commissioned by families of those killed on Oct 7.

They never expected it to happened, they didn't prepare for such an event and there are deep systemic institutional failings including arrogant group think.

I think we can see from the way that Israel are carrying out their military campaign and overall strategy that they are not prioritising the future safety of their civilians.

I don't think speculation about Oct 7 is helpful and it is very hurtful for many.

FalseFlag · 26/08/2025 11:00

TulipLavender · 26/08/2025 10:11

CBS in America interviewed GHF whistleblower who said that he was tasked with clearing up human remains mixed with animal remains and putting it on the back of a truck.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DNqqYjfs1IA/

I am not often speechless and I know I shouldn’t be surprised at anything the IDF are doing but what on earth is wrong with these people? Do they honestly think killing journalists stops the outside world finding out about these things? Mind you even when the global community does call them out it just carries on anyway.

FalseFlag · 26/08/2025 10:52

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Weltall · 26/08/2025 10:41

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That's sick.

FalseFlag · 26/08/2025 10:36

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Zonder · 26/08/2025 10:19

Wow. I'm not sure I can watch that.

TulipLavender · 26/08/2025 10:11

CBS in America interviewed GHF whistleblower who said that he was tasked with clearing up human remains mixed with animal remains and putting it on the back of a truck.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DNqqYjfs1IA/

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DNqqYjfs1IA/

PinkBobby · 26/08/2025 08:57

Montysmoon · 25/08/2025 08:24

But surely you would have supported WW2 if it meant defeating the Nazis? Israel isn’t at war for fun. It is trying to dismantle a terrorist regime so that it can live in peace and not in constant fear of another 7/10. Why is this so hard to grasp??

I’ve written this on another thread so apologies if this sounds very familiar but I don’t understand the reasoning that we must all turn a blind eye to the actions and rhetoric of the Israeli government against the people in Gaza (and the related behaviour in the WB). How dehumanising to them to suggest that their lives don’t matter in the pursuit of Hamas.

A government cutting off aid to people should cause a stir. A government denying starvation that they contributed to should cause a stir. A country weaponising aid should cause a stir. A government killing the largest number of journalists on record should cause a stir. A country dismantling the medical infrastructure that 2m+ people rely on should cause a stir.

Personally, I cannot just accept those things as ‘part of war’, especially because they are putting Israeli people at huge risk of more extremism. If you ignore or minimise the impact of the Israeli attack on normal Palestinians and their homes, you are literally pushing them into the arms of extremism.

I also can’t ignore them as I don’t want any country to see this as acceptable in war. A western democracy modelling to the world that civilians don’t matter in the pursuit of the enemy. People lately seem to have become immune to war crimes: “They always happen!” people chime, as if the impact of each and every one of those crimes isn’t something to feel angry about.

I fully acknowledge that the crimes Hamas have committed are horrendous and they have no place in Gaza. But the approach the Israeli government combined with the rhetoric they use about Gaza/Palestinians is not something I feel comfortable ignoring. They complain about being in the spotlight but if they appeared to be treating the people in Gaza with some humanity or speaking about them with some level of humanity, that spotlight would quickly fade.

The problem is with Israel’s behaviour, not with people calling it out.

Zonder · 26/08/2025 06:22

SaltAirAndTheRust · 26/08/2025 06:18

Do you think bombing the hospital was okay?

Good question.

Zonder · 26/08/2025 06:22

And in conclusion, for years we've heard how life in Gaza is so terrible. Yet once the current war started - once again, by the elected government of Gaza - and Gazans really began suffering the consequences of their actions, we find out it's all been a lie. Suddenly we hear all about the aspiring poets, doctors, lawyers who once enjoyed their freedom and prosperity.

What a bizarre paragraph. The two things are not mutually exclusive! I've seen children in abject poverty unable to go to school in Africa have aspirations of being doctors. As for poets - they are often formed in great difficulty!

SaltAirAndTheRust · 26/08/2025 06:18

Mikkymik · 26/08/2025 02:55

Well even the first paragraph conveniently ignores that any deaths by Israeli offensives were as a response to indiscriminate rockets fired from Gaza at Israeli towns.

Why don't they surrender now?

Do you think bombing the hospital was okay?

thepariscrimefiles · 26/08/2025 04:17

Mikkymik · 25/08/2025 18:38

You forgot the part where he needs Christian blood.

Ah, I see what you did there. You are accusing me of blood libel. Nice try, but while I view Netanyahu, not as an idealogue but as someone with no morality or conscience who acts purely on self-interest, he has invited into his government right wing religious fanatics such as Ben Gvir and Smotrich who absolutely believe in Greater Israel and want to achieve that aim through this conflict.

Smotrich believes Jews have a divine right to all land that made up biblical Israel. A commitment to expanding the area controlled by Jewish Israelis – both in de facto terms and through legal annexation – runs through his personal and political life.

Smotrich is a self-declared “fascist homophobe” who backed segregated maternity wards separating Jewish and Arab mothers and called for government reprisal attacks on Palestinians.

Ben Gvir embraced extremism so young that Israel’s domestic security forces barred him from serving in the country’s army as a teenager.

By his early 30s he had been convicted of incitement to racism and support for a terrorist organisation.

This is the most right-wing government that Israel has ever had.

My late dad was Jewish and my Jewish grandparents hosted a Jewish child who came to the UK on the Kindertransport so your accusations of blood libel are disgusting and misplaced.

EggCustardTartt · 26/08/2025 03:47

There will never be a real compromise. It may be that they just fight it out now to the bitter end or it goes back and forth for the rest of our lifetimes and beyond.

Howseitgoin · 26/08/2025 03:28

Problem is the 'winning' isn't going to end in Gaza. Even if Hamas surrendered & returned all the hostages, it's obvious the West Bank, Lebanon & Iran are next.

Israel isn't going to feel 'safe' until all their perceived threats are eliminated. It's a chronically paranoid country because of a self fulfilling prophecy that Netanyahu admitted to facilitating by enabling the financing of Hamas to prevent a Palestinian state ever being legitimised.

The thing with 'winning' is we all want to win including The West & global South where destabilising the middle east is against everyone's geo political & economic interests.

The battle not the war has only been won for Israel.

LimeShaker · 26/08/2025 03:16

Vivi0 · 24/08/2025 21:54

No, it’s not like saying murder happens everyday so what’s the big deal.

All deaths in war are a big deal, whether they are as a result of war crimes, or not.

People dying in war due to military intervention that is not considered a “war crime” isn’t okay either.

So many posters on this board keep repeating “war crimes” as if it means something significant, however, war crimes are symptomatic of every single war.

A poster didn’t even think Russia had carried out war crimes in Ukraine.

What does that say about the discourse around this conflict?

maybe due to the fact that usually in a war each country has an army that can fight each other and defend themselves.Palestine does not have an army and any act they take is viewed as a terrorist attack. Also Isreal have far far greater control of Gaza than two warring countries usually do. Isreal is not the democratic western power in the Middle East that was promised the behaviour of its government and citizens has been inhumane and vile and the world will not forgot the horrors we have seen. Anyone who cared about Isreal would be campaigning for them to stop.

TulipLavender · 26/08/2025 03:14

Im not going to try to defend what Hamas has done. Hamas have rightfully been universal condemned. I think its important not to conflate Gazan citizens with Hamas.

A Gazan born in 2000 would have had zero agency or influence in who took power after 2005.

I want to see a future peace and dignity for all Israeli and Palestinians civilians.

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