Hamas ‘death culture’ beyond comprehension, says founder’s son

About the only thing that President Nixon got right was his assertion that Islamism would be one of the greatest threats to the whole world.
And no continent has escaped murderous Islamism since then.
Even way down in Buenos Aires Argentina could not escape an Islamist bombing, causing many deaths.
It was the assassination of President Sadat of Egypt when I was a kid then the Iranian Revolution that tuned me into it.
The fact that Muslims suffer the most for Islamism seems to be a fact that passes the anti Zionists by.
Israel's existence, not her bombing Gaza is the main source of recruitment into Hamas and suchlike.

Another dynamic that Western anti Zionists cannot get their head around.

It's like they do not know what anti Zionism means in raw, undiluted terms.
At least Hamas and even many Muslims , especially from the Middle East are not mealy mouthed in saying that modern Israel should not exist.
Western anti Zionists care about "seeming palatable" too much , so ascribe disingenuous meanings to anti Zionism, when all it means it that one does not think that Israel should not exist and that Jewish people out of all the Abrahamic peoples should not be able to reclaim the land of their provenance, no matter how small.
Meanwhile Christianity has Western Europe, most of Eastern Europe, all of the Americas, the Antipodes, the majority of Sub Saharan Africa and increasing everyday, whether Protestant or Catholic.
Islam has the near and Middle East and minorities there have to be the toughest in the world. It has Chechnya and a large part of Indo Europe. It has cut a swathe through south East Asia , the Sub Continent and increasing the Arabist expression of Islam in West Africa as competitive piety has become a thing there. Somalia and Sudan are theocracies. Niger, etc.

But one little Israel makes so many lose their everloving natural minds!

Agreed. and I'll have to come back and read today's posts when my brain decides to fire up again. Just for now, because it's really niggling me:

No western country has rockets and missiles fired into it on an almost constant basis.

Ukraine.

Come back and tell me what a western democracy acts like when western democracies face the same situations as Israel does.

I'll tell you what Ukraine hasn't done - Run undercover raids on Russian border lands, displacing Russian residents and destroying their farms. Fired barrages into Russian town centres, schools and hospitals. Demonised and punished Russian citizens for being Russian. Murdered ambulance crews. Ignored international opinion while seeking international support. Claimed divine right to conquer Russian territories.

Israel's acting more like Russia, insofar as comparisons can be drawn.

There are massive differences, of course; the biggest one being that Israel's a small country, genuinely surrounded by enemies. This is why it has its 'iron dome' and I fully support that, as I think most people do. Expansionism isn't defence, however. Neither is the brutal, sustained and indiscriminate assault on Palestinian people.

Antisemitism is real - as is islamophobia. This doesn't mean that all criticism of Israeli actions, or Islamist ones, comes from prejudice. If you hear every word of censure as bigotry you automatically undermine your position. It's certainly true that many people will take any excuse to let their prejudices show, and that many people's instinctive response to fear is hatred. I was living in London while IRA terrorism was at its height, and saw this in action against apolitical Irish people being held to account for the attacks. (I also found out that a couple of my friends were activists - there were more similarities here than PPs upthread wanted to accept, but that's beside the point.)

All this writing just to say:

1. It's rather blinkered to say no "western democracy" is under attack;
2. You can't credibly claim that all critique of Israel's aggression is antisemitic.

Agreed. and I'll have to come back and read today's posts when my brain decides to fire up again. Just for now, because it's really niggling me:

No western country has rockets and missiles fired into it on an almost constant basis.

Ukraine.

Come back and tell me what a western democracy acts like when western democracies face the same situations as Israel does.

I'll tell you what Ukraine hasn't done - Run undercover raids on Russian border lands, displacing Russian residents and destroying their farms. Fired barrages into Russian town centres, schools and hospitals. Demonised and punished Russian citizens for being Russian. Murdered ambulance crews. Ignored international opinion while seeking international support. Claimed divine right to conquer Russian territories.

Israel's acting more like Russia, insofar as comparisons can be drawn.

There are massive differences, of course; the biggest one being that Israel's a small country, genuinely surrounded by enemies. This is why it has its 'iron dome' and I fully support that, as I think most people do. Expansionism isn't defence, however. Neither is the brutal, sustained and indiscriminate assault on Palestinian people.

Antisemitism is real - as is islamophobia. This doesn't mean that all criticism of Israeli actions, or Islamist ones, comes from prejudice. If you hear every word of censure as bigotry you automatically undermine your position. It's certainly true that many people will take any excuse to let their prejudices show, and that many people's instinctive response to fear is hatred. I was living in London while IRA terrorism was at its height, and saw this in action against apolitical Irish people being held to account for the attacks. (I also found out that a couple of my friends were activists - there were more similarities here than PPs upthread wanted to accept, but that's beside the point.)

All this writing just to say:

1. It's rather blinkered to say no "western democracy" is under attack;
2. You can't credibly claim that all critique of Israel's aggression is antisemitic.

Yes! Me! I thought kids just got indoctrinated as they grew up until they made some token commitment when they came of age/ old enough to understand.

Sorry 😞

Also yes, people say money is the root of all evil but it seems to me that religion is worse. The "in the name of God" rallying cry has driven most religions, over the centuries, to what would now be classed as terrorism; currently, it seems to be radical Islam's turn to take the world stage for that sort of thing.

I thought everyone was joking about not knowing people can be born Muslim! I don't understand this... So, for someone born in (say) Indonesia or Saudi Arabia, did you think they were sort of religiously neutral until a certain age and then got converted to Islam? I'm not poking fun, I'm just really curious about this because everyone on this thread seems clever and articulate, and I might have missed something I don't know about.

Radicalisation is obviously something that happens later in life, although from what I've read it seems to be encouraged from childhood in places like Gaza.

No not to catch you out. Just trying to understand your perspective. Im not talking about the 2WW, genocide etc. I mean modern antisemitism. David Hirsh on the Livingstone formulation would be a good start, and anything else by him. Also Dave Rich, Everyday Hate. Anything by Alan Johnson, including the Fathom essays edited by him. Hadley Freeman is always worth reading.

Academically, I studied it and other forms of racism at Uni. Some time ago but lots of interesting discussions stick with me.

Book wise: Jews don’t Count (read and watched) - I feel mixed about recommending this. It’s a good overview or intro to the issue in the UK with plenty of easily digestible info but I cannot stand DB talking about racism - I think it undermines the message having him talk about it.

Then a friend recommended People love dead Jews by Dara Horne which is a harder read but I’d highly recommend.

I’m currently reading East West Street (P Sands KC) which is nonfiction but talks about how the laws around genocide formed post WW2. I haven’t finished but it’s great so far.

I’m not sure if this was an attempt to catch me out but happy to hear other recommendations? I’d recommend One Day Everyone Will be Againsy This by Omar El Akkad.

How much research have you done into antisemitism? Which writers have you read?

I think the difficulty with Islamophobia is that it also includes people ‘perceived’ to be Muslim. For example, lots of Sikhs were abused after 9/11 because people didn’t know the difference and there was an increase in abuse toward Arab Americans and South Asian people because people assumed they were Muslim and therefore terrorists. So I don’t think you can ignore the racist element to Islamophobia - it’s not just about religion: it’s also sadly about how you look.

It just often seems to come back to it in our discussions hence my conclusion re your views. I’ve offered other ideas which you’ve dismissed (which is fine - happy to agree to disagree) but glad to hear you’re not closed off to other reason!

Nobody has ever said, to my knowledge, that ALL crtitique of Israel is antisemitic.

I think I might just set a timer and post this every day at random times. Its bound to sit nicely close to someone trying to make out that this is what people are saying.

I dont think I agree with this much.

Targeting and hating someone for their ethnicity is always wrong. Its racism.

Targeting and hating someone for their beliefs is different though. There are certainly people who deserve to be targeted and hated for their beliefs. ISIS for just one example.

For my own personal reasons and as a result of my own experience, I do mistrust strongly religious people. Christians mainly. Muslims less so, but still. Hindus not at all. Practicing Jews also not at all ( although I dare say I'd change my mind on meeting the extreme ones ).

I dont think being anti religion is racist. The 2 are completely separate. Neither are great, obviously, but to my mind racism is worse.

I've learnt something new in that lots of people are born Muslim. I'm going to need to re do a bit of thinking about that. Still, Islamophobia isn't racism. Islam is not a race.

Does it really matter though. Targeting and hating someone purely because of their beliefs or identity is wrong. It devalues people as human beings. It doesn’t matter if they chose it or not. Every group might experience racism differently but you can’t start to rank racism into which is the most worst based on some bias you hold yourself.

Does it really matter though. Targeting and hating someone purely because of their beliefs or identity is wrong. It devalues people as human beings. It doesn’t matter if they chose it or not. Every group might experience racism differently but you can’t start to rank racism into which is the most worst based on some bias you hold yourself.

@PaxAeterna
Yes, I was also criticising Israel’s government directly post Oct 7th, but then I had been criticising them since Jan 2023 due to the government’s attacks on an independent judiciary and the corruption trials pending against Netanyahu. If a government controls the judiciary, you no longer have a functioning democracy with equality before the law. And if the government is corrupt and can be bought- then it’s more like Russia or Iran than a western country.

The government response to the Hamas mass murder spree on Oct 7th was scary. The rhetoric on 7/8/9th October of “mighty vengeance” (Netanyahu) and “no electricity, no water, no food, everything is closed- these are human animals..” (Gallant) and various media presenters was shocking- one even said we will build car parks on your bones. By Oct 9th, more Gazan children had been killed by IDF air strikes than Israeli children had been killed by Hamas. Within a week, I was concerned that the war being fought to defend Israel against Hamas, but also being abused as an opportunity for revenge on Palestinian civilians.

To me, it was the Hamas terror attack that emboldened antisemites to immediately attack Jewish communities in Europe. These are terrorist fans. They hadn’t a clue about Israel, they just hate Jews and this was an opportunity to roam the streets and spread the Hamas inspired terror. I blame Hamas for why antisemitism increased.

But while the Oct 7th attack aftermath is why criticism of Israel also became more visible, I do think the people doing antisemitic attacks or criticism of Israel are not all one and the same. Sure, there is overlap as antisemites will happily don a mask of faux concern whenever it suits them. Much like racist convicted domestic abusers/rapists are masking their racism towards asylum seekers with faux concern for safety of English girls and women.

Many critics, like me, had already been disgruntled over Netanyahu’s government for years or had been aware of the Palestinian conflict from earlier flare ups.

Agreed. and I'll have to come back and read today's posts when my brain decides to fire up again. Just for now, because it's really niggling me:

No western country has rockets and missiles fired into it on an almost constant basis.

Ukraine.

Come back and tell me what a western democracy acts like when western democracies face the same situations as Israel does.

I'll tell you what Ukraine hasn't done - Run undercover raids on Russian border lands, displacing Russian residents and destroying their farms. Fired barrages into Russian town centres, schools and hospitals. Demonised and punished Russian citizens for being Russian. Murdered ambulance crews. Ignored international opinion while seeking international support. Claimed divine right to conquer Russian territories.

Israel's acting more like Russia, insofar as comparisons can be drawn.

There are massive differences, of course; the biggest one being that Israel's a small country, genuinely surrounded by enemies. This is why it has its 'iron dome' and I fully support that, as I think most people do. Expansionism isn't defence, however. Neither is the brutal, sustained and indiscriminate assault on Palestinian people.

Antisemitism is real - as is islamophobia. This doesn't mean that all criticism of Israeli actions, or Islamist ones, comes from prejudice. If you hear every word of censure as bigotry you automatically undermine your position. It's certainly true that many people will take any excuse to let their prejudices show, and that many people's instinctive response to fear is hatred. I was living in London while IRA terrorism was at its height, and saw this in action against apolitical Irish people being held to account for the attacks. (I also found out that a couple of my friends were activists - there were more similarities here than PPs upthread wanted to accept, but that's beside the point.)

All this writing just to say:

1. It's rather blinkered to say no "western democracy" is under attack;
2. You can't credibly claim that all critique of Israel's aggression is antisemitic.