Hamas ‘death culture’ beyond comprehension, says founder’s son

This is an interesting point of view that I haven't heard before. Please could you direct me to any reading material that has led you to think the Arab Palestinians wanted one state with Jewish people free to live there with the same legal status as Arabs?

It was my understanding that Arab Palestinians wished for their own state the way so many Arab regional identities got theirs at that time- with the breakup of the former Ottoman empire.

And what about you?
Do you think Israel should exist? Or would you favour a 1SS?

What should have happened in 1947 / 8, in your opinion?

Thanks, I'll check that out

I hope so too

He’s amazing.
I was reading about him just a few months ago.

100% agree and well put!

I can only speak for the people I have interacted with/chatted about this with (privately and on forums like MN) but I haven’t come across anyone who thinks Hamas should be allowed to carry on in Gaza. I haven’t met anyone who doesn’t think they committed horrendous acts.

I don’t understand, however, the reasoning that we must all turn a blind eye to the actions and rhetoric of the Israeli government against the people in Gaza (and the related behaviour in the WB). How dehumanising to them to suggest that their lives don’t matter in the pursuit of Hamas. A government cutting off aid to people should cause a stir. A government denying starvation that they contributed to should cause a stir, a country weaponising aid should cause a stir. A government killing the largest number of journalists on record should cause a stir.

Personally, I cannot just accept those things, especially because they are putting Israeli people at huge risk of more extremism. If you ignore or minimise the impact of the Israeli attack on normal Palestinian and their homes, you are literally pushing them into the arms of extremism. I also can’t ignore them as I don’t want any country to seem this acceptable in war. People lately seem to have become immune to war crimes: “they always happen” people chime as if the impact of those crimes isn’t something to feel angry about.

People are marching to ensure the Israeli government in its pursuit of Hamas cannot disregard the lives of innocent people. Whether that’s bombing a hospital twice like today or withholding aid for months. I think the world has totally lost it if we stop being outraged by such actions.

Agreed. Instead of which... 😞

"I believe in the book of books (Bible) and I read it as a call to action that every generation must do what it can to ensure the eternity of Israel. I know that without the ability to wield the sword of David we would not be here; therefore, we do what needs to be done in order to ensure that we will be here."
B.Netanyahu, 2018/19

“History, history, history. My father told me if you don’t understand how you got here, you are not going to understand how to go forward,” the Prime Minister [Netanyahu] said. “And in Israel, history begins with three words: Bible, Bible, Bible. There’s no meaning to the Jewish people without the Bible; there’s no meaning to our future without our past.”
2022

"You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible."
Netanyahu, 2023. His office clarified that he had in mind a passage from Deuteronomy: "Blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven."

"“This is a war between the children of light and the children of darkness. We will not relent in our mission until the light overcomes the darkness; the good will defeat the extremist evil that threatens us and the entire world."

"You have girded me with strength for the battle; You have subdued under me those who rose up against me."

"We will realize the prophecy of Isaiah 60:18 – 'Violence shall no more be heard in your land, desolation nor destruction within your borders; but you shall call your walls Salvation, and your gates Praise.”

Also 2023. There's more, but this is enough, especially the "three words" quote.

Netanyahu had a reputation as a diplomat and a moderate, but has been entrenching his identification with the Biblical Israel, the warlike chosen people. This may be to rally support among his Orthodox citizens, who are among the most aggressive factions of the military and the most active 'settlers' of occupied West Bank territories.

It doesn't matter why he's doing it, though. He's speaking to and for his country - in violent Bible quotes.

I don't need to illustrate that Islamist forces take their guidance from the Koran, do I. They're very loud about it.

When Hamas launched their attack on Israel on the 7th October they knew that they couldn't militarily defeat the whole of Israel. What their objective was to kill and kidnap as many Israelis as possible in the most barbaric way in order to create the biggest possible military response by Israel.

They also knew that the greater the number of Palestinian civilian casualties the greater the level of sympathy they would get from the western media / public etc. As such Hamas launch attacks against Israel from civilian areas, divert aid, and seek to create the largest possible number of civilian casualties and distress.

If the objective is genuinely to help civilians in Gaza then the most productive action the Western media / public can do is to march and campaign for the removal of Hamas.

Not that same interview but similar message from an interview with Dr Phil:

Trying to find the same interview/info on a non Israeli website, but cant

I can understand being fearful of Gazans after 7/20 if you were Israeli. The collective trauma is bound to have that sort of impact. A similar thing was seen after 9/11 - a lot of people were suspicious of all Muslim people.

But the issues with racism/segregation I was referring are not just towards the people in Gaza post 7/10. Within Israel itself, Arab Israelis are treated differently in a very visible way. There’s a total disregard for the rights of WB citizens. This all predates 7/10 although was obviously exacerbated by it. I’m not saying any of this to try and pointlessly attack Israel. I think it’s important to identify how this terrible situation occurred and to me that means looking at all parties involved. So Hamas, of course, Palestinians who to a greater or lesser extent support Hamas (and why they’re drawn to such a violent group) and Israel. Ignoring israel role makes all of this much more likely to happen again.

This makes sense to me. But the trouble is not knowing who Hamas is and isn't. They deliberately blend in with civilians, and exert such control that one wonders who can manage to survive in Gaza without to some extent deferring to Hamas, if not actively supporting them.

After what happened on 7 Oct, the enthusiastic participation of Gazan civilian mobs in the attacks, the involvement of "peace project" Gazans in providing key information to Hamas about who was going to be where and when in the kibbutzim that day, the open celebrations in the streets afterwards, and the accounts of the few returned hostages, if I were Israeli I'd be scared of everyone in Gaza, right or wrong. It's a really shitty situation.

In an ideal world there would be some kind of futuristic X-ray/DNA superscan to determine from a safe distance who is pro-Hamas and who is not, but I doubt it's that straightforward in reality.

I dont think its a religious war from the Israeli side. It was the pp that said it was a holy war. Its about security for Israel

Are ancient texts really their guiding principles? Actual guiding principles?

I can't be dealing with a viewpoint that limits itself to the last century when speaking of issues that have been ongoing for over a thousand years, whose main actors quote thousand-year-old texts as their guiding principles. I'm out - but genuinely thank you for your insights.

My comment was in response to your statement re Israel and that it “enshrines freedom of religion and religious equality.” They fail significantly on that point and that is significant when we are talking about the treatment of Palestinians in this war and the hope of future peace between Israelis and Palestinians. I realise that my comment was not the main emphasis of your discussion - apologies for sidetracking based on one small part.

The historical displacement/mistreatment/abuse/murder of Jewish people anywhere in the world is unacceptable. It is relevant in that Israel is a Jewish state and Hamas are antisemitic (although even that seems too light a word for their feelings towards Jewish people). I think there is more to this conflict than purely a religious war. Partly because I don’t believe all Palestinians are radicalised to a point where they can be discarded as terrorists. I’m also not convinced that Israel is pursuing Gaza/WB’s land from a religious perspective (although some members of govt have suggested as much). I think the main driver is that having Palestinians as neighbours is more challenging than not so pushing them out of Gaza and the WB would be ultimately easier for the security of Israel. However, this isn’t possible when the people of Gaza and WB exist. Unless you dehumanise them and pursue ethnic cleansing.

And a final comment re their treatment of minorities. It’s not a matter of nit picking loads of random things that Israel don’t excel in to prove they’re not perfect. It’s certainly not an attempt to paint all Israelis as the equivalent to Hamas. What it is, for me at least, is identifying the areas that are barriers to peace with Palestinians.

Who said they were above reproach? Or always did the right thing? Or entitled to annhilate another country? What a ridiculous straw man. Literally noone and certainly not me.

I wasn't talking about the 1000s of years of oppression. I was responding to your ludicrous suggestion that the state of Israel (which has only existed in the last 100 years) was involved in some ongoing Holy war and referring to the way other countries have treated their Jewish minorities, in that recent history, which is rather more akin to a campaign of religious inspired violence than the way Israel has treated religious minorities.

Though we must, of course, note the less than perfect way Israel and Israelis have at times treated minorities because otherwise people would assume we think that Israel alone among all nations is perfect and beyond reproach.

They went to war to stop the state of Israel from being formed.

That doesn't mean that they wanted to "remove" (ie take away from Palestine to somewhere else) those Palestinians who happened to be jewish. They just didn't want the land to be carved up into two separate countries based on religion, and couldn't see why the jewish minority couldn't continue to exist within Palestine as a whole as it always had.

It's weird how people often seem to conflate these things - the idea of a jewish state and the existence of individual jews. Even now, proponents of a one-state solution who question the right of Israel to exist as a jewish state get accused (including on this board) of wanting to exterminate the Israeli population.

Arguments about the nationhood and political settlement that should exist around a group of people are not in themselves questions about whether those people may continue to exist, or continue to exist in that locality.

@SharonEllis, only an idiot would deny that Jews have been subject to brutal oppression for ages (about 100 years in your timescape; 3,000 in mine).

This doesn't automatically mean they are above reproach, that everything they do is the right thing, or they're entitled to annihilate a neighbouring country. Not in my view anyway.

Its hardly the point here though is it? You'll find discrimination against minorities does happen in most countries. Shall we also do a quick search on how Jews have been treated in other nations in the ME? I'm sure you'll agree, its 'important to note'.
Algeria. Upon independence in 1962 only Muslims were permitted Algerian citizenship, and 95% of Algeria's 140,000 Jewish population left. Since 1870 (briefly revoked by Vichy France in 1940), most Jews in Algeria had French citizenship, and they mainly went to France, with some going to Israel.
By 1969, fewer than 1,000 Jews were still living in Algeria. By 1975 the government had seized all but one of the country's synagogues and converted them to mosques or libraries.
Egypt. 1948, approximately 75,000 Jews lived in EgyptAbout 100 remain today. In 1948, Jewish neighborhoods in Cairo suffered bomb attacks that killed at least 70 Jews. Hundreds of Jews were arrested and had their property confiscated. After the 1956 Suez crisis Egypt expelled over 25,000 Jews, confiscated their property, and about 3,000 were imprisoned. About 1,000 more were imprisoned or detained. In 1967, Jews were detained and tortured, and Jewish homes were confiscated as emigration continued.
Libya. 1948, about 38,000 Jews lived in Libya.
A series of pogroms started in November 1945, when more than 140 Jews were killed in and most synagogues in the city looted. The pogroms continued in June 1948, when 15 Jews were killed and 280 Jewish homes destroyed.
Upon Libya's independence in 1951, most of the Jewish community emigrated. After the Syez Crisis in 1956, another series of pogroms forced all but about 100 Jews to flee. When Gaddafi came to power in 1969, all remaining Jewish property was confiscated and all debts to Jews cancelled.
Although the main synagogue in Tripoli was renovated in 1999, it has not reopened for services. The last Jew in Libya died in February 2002.

I could go on. Who exactly is engaging in holy war here?

I 100% agree with your last statement.

It's unclear that they do, at least not in the formal sense of 'human shields'. Like any extremist movement, it has civilian supporters prepared to do things like climb onto the rooves of target buildings.

More generally, the people couldn't prevent Hamas units firing rockets from residential areas, schools and hospitals. I would think it is true that Hamas tunnels extend underneath populated areas, giving the IDF an excuse to bomb those areas, but this doesn't imply civilian assistance. Many residents' groups set up independent shelters, refusing Hamas guards and banning weapons.

The question's almost irrelevant now. Starving people, on yet another forced march under fire to yet another crowded ghetto, are not going to be thinking about whether to sacrifice themselves for a political group. Any eventual survivors of this extended trauma are more likely to be radicalised, though 😢

I think it’s important to note that racism/segregation is a visible issue in Israel though. This doesn’t stretch anywhere close to a religious war but they certainly have issues when it comes to violence towards and segregation of minorities.

Errm yes I know why Israel is where it is.

But if you have to go back to the OT to find evidence of Jews engaging in Holy War you have lost the argument. References to history and religion are hardly surprising when history & religious tradition bind the Jewish nation but a few extremists hardly represent Jewish people or reflect how Jews have behaved historically. While I'm not an expert on Israel's constitutional arrangements the Declaration of Independence enshrines freedom of religion and religious equality, and around 20% of Israelis are not Jewish, hardly the actions of a state dedicated to wiping out other religions (though many of them are dedicated to wiping out both Israel and Jewish people). Judaism is fundamentally not a proseltysing religion, unlike Islam.