UEFA have finally taken a stand

The 1000s of people held on administrative detention are clearly the people I am talking about when I say that they haven't been charged. They are the people that posters are referring to when they speak of Palestinian hostages. I'm not sure why you are pretending to be obtuse.

It's pretty easy to compare the taking of medical professionals who are charged with absolutely nothing from their workplace with the taking of soldiers who are charged with absolutey nothing from their workplace. If of course you see them both as equal people.

Agree.

Im starting to feel that its absolutely pointless to be on here. Im actually of the opinion that the current Israeli actions are getting increasingly indefensible, but its almost impossible to have a conversation with anyone about it for being too busy batting away outright lies, misinformation and strawman arguments.

Detainees are not hostages. Its so basic.

We could be having an indepth about the administrative detention being practiced by Israel which is really quite bad enough and a conversation worth having, but instead we're tied up in whether people found guilty of terrorist offenses against civilians are the same as hostages taken on 7 October. Its mind bending. Thats just one example.

It concerns me because truth really does matter. If we lose sight of actual, objective truth then we'll never have common ground from which to talk. If we can't even manage it here, what does that say about the future for both sides?

Yes it is quite bizarre. A pp says there's no point comparing it to our justice system then does just that and also decides a detainee is the same thing as a hostage .

It is not the same thing! As I've said hostages are innocent people taken purely as a bargaining tool.

It's like some posters really believe that murderers and terrorists are just misunderstood like that journalist targeted last week. Nothing to do with hamas oh nooo despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Apols- here's the link.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinian-prisoner-release-hamas-ceasefire-hostage-3a20774bb4b519e852273ec559687b3b

This feels like wading through treacle.

I"ve attached a link below. The last batch of Pals released by Israel included men found guilty of murder, manslaughter, for involvement in suicide bombings that killed civilians in peacetime etc etc.

How on earth can you equate that to the taking of completely innocent hostages? Its not the same. Its deeply offensive to suggest its the same.

Twenty-one of those for instance are healthcare workers including senior consultants who have been held for more than 400 days. HWW said none had been charged with any crimes by the Israeli authorities. 400 days of being tortured, starved, beaten, not knowing if they are going to ever see their families again. 400 days that they could have been charged with something, anything but they haven't. There are no alleged crimes. There is nothing at all but healthcare workers taken mostly from their places of work and abused for over 400 days. I see no reason at all not to draw equivalance with the 20 Israeli soldiers who were taken from their work, held and abused.

But they aren't being held for alleged crimes that's the whole point. There are no charges against them. They are just being held for indertiminate reasons for an indeterminate amount of time.

Because you're grouping a whole load of people with entirely different situations into one, inappropriate category. We dont know the individual stories of each Palestinian detainee. Like I said, some have commited awful crimes and caused Israeli civilian deaths. Some are murderers. Some are children. Some are guilty. Some are also no doubt innocent. You cant put them all into the same category.

The Hamas taken hostages are all innocent. They are not suspected of, or charged with any crime. They were people simply getting on with their lives before they were taken.

They are not equivalent.

I see it as a bad thing to draw equivalence because its not the truth. The truth is more complex.

You harm your own arguments against Israel's actions when you mis characterize them. You also falsely build more hatred.

They are detainees, and possibly illegal detainees. They are not hostages.

The prisoners are being held for alleged crimes, we can argue til the cows come if you think that is justifed but that is why they are detained or for administrative issues.

They aren't being held as bargaining chips. That's the difference between a detainee and a hostage you see.

Granted they have now exchanged prisoners for hostages but that was not the reason they were arrested in the first place.

What would you say are the main differences between people who are taken off the street, held illegally without charge and who are being starved, tortured, sexually assaulted and kept without their consent for an indeterminate amount of time and the 20 members of the military being held illegally as hostages and treated the same by Hamas?

Why do you see it as a bad thing to equivalate people who are going through very similar things in the same area?

I'd say that exceptionalizing Palestinian childhood as quantum tried to do, they aren't like 'us', 'childhood' is different there, is trying to excuse their detainment, torture and sexual assault. I can think of no other reason quantum decided to hop on board and impart this wisdom on us other than trying to excuse it. Weird behaviour if you ask me.

Detainees.
And if you prefer- illegal detainees.

The Palestinian detainees, illegal or other, are not hostages. Some have been convicted of serious crimes, murder, terrorism. Some have been held without charge for an indefinite amount of time. And everything in between. Still, they are not hostages. Calling these detainees 'hostages' falsely equates them to the Hamas hostages.

Again. What Israel is doing is bad enough without twisting the truth into something worse. Words matter. Please let's just stick to the truth.

I have to say as well that I find it fascinating that people who I presume are British women feel compelled to defend a system that denies children their rights '

Who is defending it? Rather pointing out other countries do things very differently to us. You yourself said 'Comparing the system in the UK to the Israeli military courts is like comparing apples and oranges isn't it?'. Which is it, compare or don't compare?

Whichever prisoners are detained is not the same as terrorists committing atrocities, abducting innocent men women and children then starving and torturing them.

Prisoners are not hostages. That's maybe one for my next placard.

Former US state department employee, Josh Paul (who resigned last year) talking about the credible reports of a 13 year old Palestinian boy who was raped whilst detained by Israel.

When the State Department asked the Israeli government to explain/investigate they reacted by closing down the offices of the charity that reported this to the State Department.

Unrelated but also currently causing controversy and disgust in America, an Israeli official was caught trying to arrange to meet a 15 year old girl to abuse. Instead if having his passport taken he was allowed to return to Israel.

"A top cybersecurity official for the Israeli government was arrested in Nevada during an undercover operation targeting child sex predators.
Tom Alexandrovich was apprehended and faced felony charges of “Luring a Child with Computer for Sex Act,” according to the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, which assisted in conducting the operation from nearby Henderson, Nevada."

https://www.mediaite.com/crime/israeli-official-arrested-in-nevada-child-sex-operation-is-released-and-back-in-israel/

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/aug/16/nevada-arrest-israeli-official

Do tell.

Why?

Israel is the only country in the world that automatically prosecutes children in military courts and does so while denying them lawyers, family presence, and protection from torture. It’s a documented, systemic abuse of children’s rights.

I find it fascinating that anyone would defend this

I have to say as well that I find it fascinating that people who I presume are British women feel compelled to defend a system that denies children their rights and leads to their torture and sexual assault. Just why? What is it about hearing about the appalling treatment of Palestinian children that makes you jump in to defend it? Is it just the torture of Palestinian kids that you defend or do you do this for all kids too like UNICEF in reverse?

Each year the Israeli military detains and prosecutes between 500 to 700 Palestinian children in Israeli military courts that lack basic safeguards for a fair trial. From the moment of arrest, Palestinian children encounter ill-treatment and torture at the hands of Israeli forces. Despite the fact that international norms reaffirm that civilians, including children, must never be brought before military courts, Israel persists in being the only country in the world to automatically and systematically prosecute children in military courts.

Comparing the system in the UK to the Israeli military courts is like comparing apples and oranges isn't it?

• Palestinian children detained and prosecuted by Israeli forces in the Israeli military detention and court system are denied the right to a fair hearing by a competent, independent, and impartial tribunal.
• Israeli authorities systematically arrest Palestinian children from the occupied West Bank without any attempt to issue arrest warrants that would establish a legal basis for the detentions.
• Israeli authorities overwhelmingly fail to explain or inform the Palestinian child or their family of the reasons for an arrest.
• Israeli forces and authorities’ systematically deny Palestinian children their right to prompt access to legal assistance and the presence of a family member during interrogation.
• Israeli forces and authorities’ systemic non-observance of the obligatory and absolute prohibition against torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment constitutes arbitrary detention.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/arbitrary-default-palestinian-children-israeli-military-court-system

Hamas stopped the practise of using children as suicide bombers or militants over 20 years ago so how does that link justify the false imprisonment, torture and starvation of small children.

As your Wikipedia article also states, Hamas leadership made several statements over 20 years ago that child soldiers should never be used. At least one Hamas leader ignored that and said that people are adults from 16 (so kind of akin to the UK) but he died 21 years ago which might account for the lack of recent reports. Completely wrong and abhorrent of the Hamas leaders who did use older children as militants but as the last person doing it died 21 years ago I don’t believe it relates in anyway to the children currently being abused, starved and tortured in Israeli jails.

There have been NO reports of armed children in the current genocide. A huge number of children in prison have not been charged and those that have been charged have mostly been charged with throwing stones at fully grown ARMED adults. Please do not try to justify the imprisonment of children as legitimate on a site for mothers, it is abhorrent. For the record my husband is sporting a gash from a thrown cup by my toddler and I witnessed many kids throwing stones as a child - none were starved, tortured or imprisoned for months!

Israel have been cited as abusing children by using them as human shields and torturing children to get them to agree to be informants for the last few decades!
https://www.refworld.org/reference/annualreport/cscoal/2004/en/64756

I don't suppose you do.

Would you be shocked to hear that the age of criminal responsibility in England & Wales is 10?Anyone under the age of 18 is a child. Legal marriage age was only raised from 16 to 18 in 2023. Legal age to join the armed forces is still 16.
Childhood is a very different concept in many parts of the world, you may find that subjectively unpalatable, but the objective reality is that terrorists weaponise children.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups