UEFA have finally taken a stand

That sounds like your opinion not fact. Facts are objective and can be proven but you are providing no evidence that Israel are picking people at random and with no suspicions towards them.

Others hold a different opinion which is that Israel hold people without charging them but not without suspicion.

Don’t think they have any answers to that @EasyTouch

How long do you think you are going to get away with accusing individual posters of certain motivations because unlike you, they are not prepared to throw away common sense and intellect in order to try and " win" debates?

So shallow is your faith in your own stand, you make up narratives then accuse others of doing the same because their correct definition of things appear to be too banal for the dramatic, yet monochrome prism through which your vision of even words are viewed.

Instead of accusing posters of malignant motivations, what are YOUR motivations for posting?
Is it to police the CITME threads, to make sure no shard of sunlight penetrates your bargain bucket Maoist thought speak?

Or is your stand so fragile that even world recognised thought and definitions of words and simple dynamics , the action/ reaction equation have to be rewritten as if Foucault himself had instructed you to break down what is commonly understood?

And just for the sake of doing so, whilst claiming moral superiority, whilst doing your level best to try and distress people who do not see your chaoticly refined circularity coming.

It's not that you care, is it? To care takes effort. You just need to seem better than those who do care, but do not have the pathology of force teaming themselves with a paranoid finger pointing hall monitor persona.

You do know it's 2025 and not Year Zero?
And that the word is Pravda, not Prada?

Again, no. Israel uses arrest and detention as a tool to convince the Palestinians to either stay quiet or move out or live in segregated areas. This is very common to apartheid regimes. They are often unlawfully seized and detained, although they are uninvolved civilians. They are used by Israel to compel the Palestinians as a whole to act in a given way or to refrain from acting. The ultimate goal is to curb the possibility for the Palestinians to resist.

Yes it is obvious that the IDF suspect them of something even if they are wrong as said before, even if they are paranoid about male Palestinians in particular.

No one is trying to legitimise the amount of Palestinians that the IDF detain without proper process being followed but to imply they do it with zero suspicions towards the detainees is a nonsense argument.

As is often the case, you don’t need to exaggerate. The truth is bad enough.

It really isn't when you look at the behaviour of the IDF not just over the past 2 years but for decades.20% of Palestinians, 40% of Palestinian men have been detained by Israel at some point in their life. It's a systemic practice used to fragment families and communities and exert control. It's a practice that has long been documented by human rights groups.

Well of course they’re suspected of something, even if the IDF are wrong to detain them. They don’t detain every Gazan they see so logically the ones they detain are the ones they think have done something wrong. Even it’s a relatively minor thing like throwing stones, even if the person being detained is in fact innocent. They may be wrong in holding them but they must have a reason in their own minds.

We’re not trying to defend the indefensible. It’s not right to hold people without charge and it’s not right to hold minors.

But it’s common sense to say they are suspected of something. Though impossible to prove as most common sense things are because it’s just obvious.

Such a long post yet you didn't answer my question. You accuse me of writing their narrative when you are the one insisting that all Palestinians being held, for sometimes years, are suspected of something with no evidence at all to back up your claims. That reads as you trying to legitimise their captivity, which is imo defending the indefensible, again.

Such a long post yet you didn't answer my question. You accuse me of writing their narrative when you are the one insisting that all Palestinians being held, for sometimes years, are suspected of something with no evidence at all to back up your claims. That reads as you trying to legitimise their captivity, which is imo defending the indefensible, again.

I find it utterly bizarre that you keep insisting a nameless group of people that you dont know of, know nothing about, know nothing of their stories, what they've done, what they believe- yet youre sure these thousands of people are not only completely innocent but are also being tortured. Its almost as if youre writing their stories for them, to fit into your simple narrative of 'Israel bad, Palestinians victims'.

For the last time. Some will be guilty. Some will be innocent. Some will definitely be charged at some point ( id imagine Israeli courts are quite busy at the moment ), some may never be charged and this is a terrible situation to be in. Its Guantanamo Bay. Its a terrible abuse of human rights.

However. To draw an equivalence between the hostages taken on 7 October is just factually incorrect. Those people were taken under no suspicion at all. They have ALL done nothing wrong. They are being used as bargaining chips by terrorists. Lots of them have been actually murdered, and they must know that their fate could be similar at any given moment.

All youre betraying with you continued insistence is your completely divorced from reality views on Israel. And your ignorance on how the world works.

Im not coming back to comment further on this matter. I think youre beyond changing your mind or admitting youre wrong on this subject. I just hope others who are following this ridiculous thread can see what I'm saying.

Bring all the hostages home. What they have endured is unimaginable, unforgivable.

Israel also should end its policy of failing to charge detainees. The moral argument to do so is irrefutable.

The Palestinians being detained by Israel have been taken because they are suspected of something.

Have they? Where is your proof of that? There is nothing at all to suggest that the 1000s of people held without charge are suspected of anything at all. Being held with no charges at all against you for more than 40pdays would indicate to most people that it is quite the opposite, that there is nothing at all that they can find to charge them with and the bar is low for Israel. I find it quite dark that you insist on casting shadows over these people who are being tortured, sexually assaulted and starved without any evidence at all.

It kind of does.

The Palestinians being detained by Israel have been taken because they are suspected of something.

Have they? Where is your proof of that? There is nothing at all to suggest that the 1000s of people held without charge are suspected of anything at all. Being held with no charges at all against you for more than 40pdays would indicate to most people that it is quite the opposite, that there is nothing at all that they can find to charge them with and the bar is low for Israel. I find it quite dark that you insist on casting shadows over these people who are being tortured, sexually assaulted and starved without any evidence at all.

The Palestinians being detained by Israel have been taken because they are suspected of something. Some have been convicted of awful crimes. Some have been suspected only of minor crimes or involvement. Some have been charged and found guilty. Some have never been charged let alone found guilty. They are not a homogeneous group.

The hostages who have been taken by Hamas are all completely innocent. They are not suspected or charged with any crime, never will be, and they are being held as bargaining chips.

These 2 groups are not the same.

The Palestinians being detained by Israel have been taken because they are suspected of something. Some have been convicted of awful crimes. Some have been suspected only of minor crimes or involvement. Some have been charged and found guilty. Some have never been charged let alone found guilty. They are not a homogeneous group.

The hostages who have been taken by Hamas are all completely innocent. They are not suspected or charged with any crime, never will be, and they are being held as bargaining chips.

These 2 groups are not the same.

Agree Gladioli it’s quite a simple concept once we allow ourselves to appreciate that all people are equal

Those taken without reason or charge are the same. Wherever they are from.

Meanwhile delighted to see UEFAs stand and amazing to see so many more do so too.

Stop killing children
Stop killing civilians

.

I have to say as well that I find it fascinating that people who I presume are British women feel compelled to defend a system that denies children their rights and leads to their torture and sexual assault. Just why? What is it about hearing about the appalling treatment of Palestinian children that makes you jump in to defend it? Is it just the torture of Palestinian kids that you defend or do you do this for all kids too like UNICEF in reverse?

The 1000s of people held on administrative detention are clearly the people I am talking about when I say that they haven't been charged. They are the people that posters are referring to when they speak of Palestinian hostages. I'm not sure why you are pretending to be obtuse.

It's pretty easy to compare the taking of medical professionals who are charged with absolutely nothing from their workplace with the taking of soldiers who are charged with absolutey nothing from their workplace. If of course you see them both as equal people.

I agree, the terminology does matter.

Unfortunately among the detainees are hundreds of children.

Detainees.
And if you prefer- illegal detainees.

The Palestinian detainees, illegal or other, are not hostages. Some have been convicted of serious crimes, murder, terrorism. Some have been held without charge for an indefinite amount of time. And everything in between. Still, they are not hostages. Calling these detainees 'hostages' falsely equates them to the Hamas hostages.

Again. What Israel is doing is bad enough without twisting the truth into something worse. Words matter. Please let's just stick to the truth.

The 1000s of people held on administrative detention are clearly the people I am talking about when I say that they haven't been charged. They are the people that posters are referring to when they speak of Palestinian hostages. I'm not sure why you are pretending to be obtuse.

It's pretty easy to compare the taking of medical professionals who are charged with absolutely nothing from their workplace with the taking of soldiers who are charged with absolutey nothing from their workplace. If of course you see them both as equal people.