So are MSF wrong about Gaza too?

Depends on who you believe. There are people starving, but how that starvation comes about, is open to question. Not everybody is going to or be shamed into believing all of that is Israel's fault.

Yes - I can imagine that is also very distressing as the Israeli government’s actions clearly don’t reflect the views of all Israeli people, let alone all Jewish people around the world.

Yes, Jewish people feel the same, when they are grouped with Israel's actions.

So is this the ‘cost of war’ argument? That we have to accept or even support the actions of the Israeli government and its military orders including any deaths as they are just the sad and inevitable outcome of conflict?

Israel doesn't want to govern it. What do you think should happen to the civilians, when their neighbours won't have them?

It certainly is. As although Doctors without Borders are experts in the medical field, they aren't in the military field.

Sorry - I don’t want to derail the thread but echo chambers are specially when you only hear views that ‘echo’ your own. So it needs to be 100% rather than 85% That’s why they’re so dangerous (potentially) because there’s no disagreement or debate so views are repeated and perspectives reinforced over and over. The need for evidence or fact diminishes because no one is questioning each other or calling people out.

edit: just in case I wasn’t clear I initially, I was suggesting people are in echo chambers (probs on social media or friendship groups) and then are shocked when they come to more mixed forums like MN and are questioned.

You said there's a lot of echo chambers out there. The CITME board represents at least 85 per cent of pro Palestinian threads. That's an example of an echo chamber.

Lots of people on that board have very different views to mine. I’ve spent quite a lot of time talking to them and trying to work out why they think what they think. So they are not echo chambers because an echo chamber is somewhere where you only hear your view repeated back to you - sorry to nitpick but it was something I studied at uni!

Take at look at the CITME board, if you want to see your views, echoed.

MN is definitely not proving to be an echo chamber of my views! And this thread is only just starting - I’m sure people will be along soon enough with valid reasons why sources like MSF are useless. One person has tried so far but their source was a little bias for my liking.

Did I read somebody talking about echo chambers? Coughs.

Plus there seems to be a whole mix of misinformation (like they voted for Hamas so they are Hamas) and Islamophobia at play so it’s really hard to have a constructive discussion when someone’s sources are totally biased or just wrong/racist. There’s a lot of very scary echo chambers out there so when their beliefs/ideas are questioned, they are shocked and think you’re basically a member of Hamas.

Something I have noticed is that there is a real scarcity of proper ‘evidence’ on that side of the argument too. I’ve seen a lot of random X profiles and some YouTube clips but I don’t see an alternative to something like MSF to help me understand their perspective.

I think I was on this thread too - people literally uploading photos of victims in a war zone so we could all judge if they were thin enough to pity. Probably the bleakest thing I’ve ever seen.

The amount of Islamophobia/racism/pure hatred/dehumanisation I have seen aimed at Palestinian people of late is extremely disturbing. Hatred towards Hamas - sure, they’re a terrorist group. But twisting yourself in knots to make the Israeli government’s policies acceptable and discredit pretty reliable sources like MSF is something I just don’t understand.

Why can't they just eat their own food at home? They obviously have it, they are not thin enough to be starving.

(Honestly I read this view on MN only a few weeks ago, absolutely terrifying that these people exist among us)

I’m an unapologetic Zionist and I agree with you completely. You can support the existence of Israel yet radically disagree with Netanyahu’s ‘methods’

Exactly as I predicted, didn’t take long 🙄🙄

Where does the WHO get its information?

From NGO Monitor:

• MSF consistently abuses its status as a humanitarian organization to launch venomous anti-Israel political campaigns.
• In March 2024, MSF Canada’s treasurer Bryon Sonberg resigned claiming MSF “claims to be independent, neutral and impartial” are “untrue.” He expressed concerns that “MSF Canada failed to condemn October 7 or correct false statements on social media about the conflict.” According to Sonberg, “When I asked about MSF’s silence about the October 7 Hamas attacks, I was told that MSF only comments on what it witnesses; as MSF did not witness the attacks or their effects, they could not comment on them.”
• In December 2023, former MSF Secretary General Alain Destexhe published a report titled “Doctors Without Borders (Médecins Sans Frontières), an Accomplice of Hamas?” According to Destexhe, “The communication of the Nobel Peace Prize laureate and its employees on the ground since 7 October shows a systematic bias in favour of Hamas and hostility to Israel. Doctors Without Borders has failed in its humanitarian purpose and violated its own charter, which proclaims the impartiality, neutrality and independence of the organization with regard to any political or religious power…Despite being subject to the MSF Charter, a significant proportion of its staff seem to share the Hamas point of view and support the terrorist attacks of 7 October…The proximity between some MSF staff and Hamas raises questions about possible links between MSF in Gaza and extremist groups”