So are MSF wrong about Gaza too?

Can you explain what an extreme religious Zionist is. Do you understand the meaning of Zionism?

I agree with most of what you've said. I say witch hunt because of the sea of misinformation that you have to wade through. A lot of what I've witnessed is nothing but bullying tactics from ignorant brainwashed people. Jewish people are in between a rock and a hard place because Palestinians are considered the underdogs. They are, in one respect but most of the oppression is at the hands of their own people - that's not just Hamas but the discarding of the value of their lives, by other Arab states You can't talk about it without being labelled racist. There is much more to this conflict.

But as discussed earlier in the thread, a lot of people just have an issue with the Israeli government and the impact of its military decisions/tactics and absolutely no issue with Jewish people generally (because they are a group of individuals who have individual views about the conflict - they can’t just be lumped together).

I understand that lots of people sadly use it as a very thin veil for antisemitism, just as people who lump Hamas and Palestinians into the same group may be Islamophobic. I think it’s important to note though that anyone can and should question Israel’s impact on Palestinian people without it automatically being an antisemitic ‘witch hunt’.

The most persecuted ethnoreligious group, and the west has joined in on the witch hunt.

From NGO Monitor:

• MSF consistently abuses its status as a humanitarian organization to launch venomous anti-Israel political campaigns.
• In March 2024, MSF Canada’s treasurer Bryon Sonberg resigned claiming MSF “claims to be independent, neutral and impartial” are “untrue.” He expressed concerns that “MSF Canada failed to condemn October 7 or correct false statements on social media about the conflict.” According to Sonberg, “When I asked about MSF’s silence about the October 7 Hamas attacks, I was told that MSF only comments on what it witnesses; as MSF did not witness the attacks or their effects, they could not comment on them.”
• In December 2023, former MSF Secretary General Alain Destexhe published a report titled “Doctors Without Borders (Médecins Sans Frontières), an Accomplice of Hamas?” According to Destexhe, “The communication of the Nobel Peace Prize laureate and its employees on the ground since 7 October shows a systematic bias in favour of Hamas and hostility to Israel. Doctors Without Borders has failed in its humanitarian purpose and violated its own charter, which proclaims the impartiality, neutrality and independence of the organization with regard to any political or religious power…Despite being subject to the MSF Charter, a significant proportion of its staff seem to share the Hamas point of view and support the terrorist attacks of 7 October…The proximity between some MSF staff and Hamas raises questions about possible links between MSF in Gaza and extremist groups”

And this

https://ngo-monitor.org/reports/doctors-without-borders-systematically-ignoring-israeli-victims-and-hamas-terror/

realise as well, “reports” from NGOs are also viewed as fundraising “opportunities”. They’re always looking for money … so always bad news and controversy & upset. Specifically - children. That’s what gets donations. Fundraising u

Brings to mind the post 1950 explosion of Jews from Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Morocco, and Lebanon. The view of leadership in these countries was … send them to Israel. Jews lost land, property in these countries as view was - they have Israel now … send them there.

The group was accused of racism in 2020, in its hiring and promotion of staff. Surprised many missed it, as it was reported in the Guardian - the left's bible.

Thank you for replying. Any justifiable means? That's a convenient misinterpretation of self-dermination; a desire to live safely. There are different strands to Zionism, which you do recognise. The promised land or ancestral home is a crucial part of the Zionist movement, and one which many many people - normally those, who march every Saturday - are ignorant of. What's also forgotten is the expulsion of Jews, from Jerusalem, where Jews were dispersed to different areas. Wouldn't you want a Jewish state, where you could live together and in peace? They aren't allowed to do that though. Most notably because of the biggest threat, culminating in 7/10. The misinformation around illegal settlements, has gathered speed, as has the idea that all Jews are Zionists.

There is room for improvement at MSF … not wrong for it to be mentioned.

Thank you for replying. Any justifiable means? That's a convenient misinterpretation of self-dermination; a desire to live safely. There are different strands to Zionism, which you do recognise. The promised land or ancestral home is a crucial part of the Zionist movement, and one which many many people - normally those, who march every Saturday - are ignorant of. What's also forgotten is the expulsion of Jews, from Jerusalem, where Jews were dispersed to different areas. Wouldn't you want a Jewish state, where you could live together and in peace? They aren't allowed to do that though. Most notably because of the biggest threat, culminating in 7/10. The misinformation around illegal settlements, has gathered speed, as has the idea that all Jews are Zionists.

Interesting. I don’t agree with the occupation plan but I don’t know what else is an alternative at the moment. I do agree with a 2 state solution but also that Hamas must be removed for that to even be considered - potentially with whole new Palestinian governance - but they must be allowed self determination- just not with Hamas.

Yes, I understand what Zionism is, which is why I focused on a narrow subset.

A religious Zionist would be one that believes there to be divine justification for Israel's existence and (usually) it having particular territory. More extreme Zionists would be those who are uncompromisingly expansionsist, and view realizing Israel's "right" to the disputed territories (beyond the 1948 and/or 1967 borders) to be paramount, and justifies any available means.

There's often an overlap between religiosity and that level of extremism.

Jesus, like genocide porn.

I think the deliberate failure to make a distinction between Hamas and the Palestinian people really disturbs me- it’s justifying collective punishment.

Exactly as I predicted, didn’t take long 🙄🙄

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Can you explain what an extreme religious Zionist is. Do you understand the meaning of Zionism?

But that’s a very interesting point. And one of the first times I have seen that acknowledged on here tbh- granted I haven’t read all the threads - but I haven’t had the impression that that point is widely made in these discussions. Its acknowledging a divide between the views of Israeli people and its government around hostage policy isn’t it?

It’s worth pointing out though that the people of Gaza shouldn’t be displaced from their land though. If that’s what your other point means.

I don't know what the denialists are playing at. There doesn't seem to be a single international organization that doesnt think Israel are - at least - contributing to the crisis. Even Israel/Netanyahu's biggest enabler - the US - aren't buying the details any more.

If you're a Netanyahu Zealot, or an extreme religious Zionist, you'd be better off trying to spin it as somehow justifiable.

The absolute denials, particularly some of the more deranged assertions that I've seen on here over the last few weeks (such as Palestinians actually being obese) are so evil and unhinged that they're only going to stoke anti-Israel sentiment.

Depends on who you believe. There are people starving, but how that starvation comes about, is open to question. Not everybody is going to or be shamed into believing all of that is Israel's fault.