Israeli security cabinet expected to approve Gaza takeover plan

Oh and @pinkbobby if you're talking about grouping people together and racism, care to explain why Jews are scared for their lives? Why they are being called Zionist cunts, amongst other slurs?

Once again, nobody is grouping all Muslims together. I can't work out whether you're being naive or deliberately obtuse. I can see, however, that you only want to focus on one ethnoreligion and yes, you do appear to be looking to minimise that ethnoreligion's destruction to another. We are always hearing about how hard done by Palestinians are - which is mostly at the hands of their own people and other Arab states. Israel is an inconvenient state that refuses to go away.

No I don't blur the lines at all so why my post was deleted, I don't know. I made it clear that it's extreme/radical/fundamental Islam that is a problem. How many Jewish 'terrorists' attacks have taken place? In order to understand - or begin to bother understanding the complexities of this war- you can't conveniently overlook that one race wants to wipe out another. That goes for another posting saying you need to leave the past behind.

To be clear, I’m not defending Hamas. Their intentions are clear. My analysis is why they gain popularity and again I don’t think this all boils down to Islam being an inherently violent religion. My big issue in this discussion is when Arab/Islam/Hamas/terrorism is used interchangeably. I think the same when people blur the line between the Israeli government, the Israeli people and Jewish people. They should not be lumped together. It’s racism.

If you’re not going to read people’s responses to your messages, what is the point in debating or discussing any of these issues?

You seem to have closed yourself off to important context and that actually exacerbates the issue of extremism (as I’ve explained above but you didn’t bother to read it). With any group that commits terrorist acts or crimes like Hamas, you have to understand why they appear/appeal. And it isn’t just because Islam is an inherently violent religion. Millions of people follow it without committing atrocities or being antisemitic or joining terrorists groups.

You seem to blur the lines between Islam and Islamic extremism, terrorist and innocent Arab people. This all points towards Islamophobia so I’m happy to finish our interactions here.

History is in the past - we can’t judge people living today for what their ancestors did 100s of years ago. We are all made of the same flesh and blood, our brains are all capable of learning, growing, empathy etc… The majority of the time if you raise a child to hate they will hate, if you raise a child to love they will love - obviously some have neurological issues - sociopaths etc.

If we focus on atrocities committed hundreds of years ago and blame people for things their ancestors did we would never be at peace and the world would be a different place. England has taken over most of the world at different times - they slaughtered people in India, Africa, Argentina, Ireland and even Scotland! In Ireland we had 800 years of on and off attacks and a genocide 180 years ago which saw the population halved due to starvation and emigration. I have been with my English partner almost 20 years and he has not tried to murder me once or steal anyone’s land so blaming him for something that happened hundreds of years ago at the order of some dead sociopathic kings and queens would be crazy.

Every religion and race has had people who have committed atrocities. Irish people fleeing starvation went on to brutalise and murder black dock workers in Boston and went onto become the Irish Mafia, some Irish Indentured servants on gaining their independence in the Caribbean became brutal slave owners, Irish people were in the IRA who murdered innocent people.

Jewish, Islamic, Catholic, Protestant people have ALL committed atrocities at one time or another. There have been terrorists, murderers and criminals from all religions and ethnicities. What crimes people committed centuries ago is irrelevant to people today, we can only stop crimes happening today, we can only stop murderers who are still alive and continue to kill. We can only save the living. To group people as all the same because of their religion or ethnicity is racist and it is hate speech. There is never a justification for genocide.

Completely agree @PinkBobby with all your points here. Reducing a complex situation to soundbites is only going to prolong suffering for everyone in the region.

I know enough about history generally to know that you can find loads of examples of different groups persecuting each other whether it’s based on religion or ethnicity or territory. It’s very selective to suggest it’s only an Arab/Islam issue throughout history. The UK’s historic track record alone is terrible. Islamic extremism can be linked back to some (of the many) historic examples, of course, but that doesn’t make Arab people generally inherently more violent or plain evil. I wouldn’t base my view of Arabs on their history of extremism just like I wouldn’t judge Christians on the crusades. I think you should be careful about how you word things or how you seem to be selective with history because singling Arab people out in this way and suggesting they’re all the same (especially when we are talking about extremism) is racist. Again, this may not have been your intention but jumping from historical extremism to the general Arab population to Hamas looks like you don’t really differentiate between each group.

I know enough about the regional history to know that Hamas are a terrorist group who need to be removed from power. They have committed terrible acts against Israeli people (and their own people) and will not accept peace with Israel. More moderate leaders are desperately needed. I also know enough regional history to know that Israel has treated Palestinians as lesser for decades and this ongoing process has helped feed Hamas’s power. They are obviously not solely responsible for Hamas’s actions but they have played a role in their ‘success’. To ignore Israel’s role in all of this is how this will all happen again - same issue, different group. The same goes for dehumanising terrorists. If we treat them like they’re some different species, we can ignore the reason why a group was created and why it gained popularity or even power. I’m not questioning Hamas’s aims or suggesting Hamas can be deradicalised. But I do think it is vital to understand why they started (beyond the religious element), why their message even appealed to people and why they could get people to act in such a horrendous way. As I said, happy people don’t become terrorists.

The whole point needs to be to get rid of extremism in any form as it’s never going to bring peace. I also know enough about the region to know there is extremism in Israel too, from what people in power say that dehumanises Palestinians, to how settlers act and treat Arab people, to first hand experience that racism in Israel towards their own Arabs population is bad enough to be very visible to visitors. Changes need to happen in Israel too if a two state solution is ever viable.

Countries like Jordan and UAE have provided aid to Gaza (when Israel has allowed it) and they, amongst others, have provided a lot of medical aid in their hospitals. It is unfair to judge other Arab nations for not helping rehome the entire population of Gaza. Firstly, how would they ensure that Hamas doesn’t spread itself across the region? A network disappearing like this and regrouping would be an even bigger problem for Israel and would definitely mean more innocent Israeli people were killed. Also evidence of a terrorist network or, worse, an attack planned from another country would be a huge threat to peace in the region. Furthermore, there would be no promise that these refugees could eventually return home afterwards. People like to make money after such tragedies - it is much more realistic that Israel (and the US) would cash in on their newly won territory and create Trump’s awful Riviera. I’m not saying this in an anti Israel way. It’s just what’s happened in recent history - the US govt. are experts at it. Good old disaster capitalism. This would leave the other country/countries with a huge number of angry displaced people. Again, not conducive to peace and very unfair on the people of Gaza who have been displaced from their homes. Maybe this is a cynical view but I don’t think Israel will automatically rebuild Gaza for Gazan people of the area is emptied. There are too many extremists in the government who would want to keep the land rather than return it the refugees. And, to be honest, their lives would be so much easier in some ways if they kept it for themselves.

It’s an incredibly complex situation and I don’t think it’s enough to say Hamas are evil and need to be destroyed then there will be peace. Hamas are extremists so what people need to work out is why they gained any support or traction. You cannot use the religious argument alone to explain this. There need to be other conditions for people to feel that angry about life/have nothing left to lose. This is where Hamas’s treatment of its people comes in but also Israel’s. Both have made Palestinian lives more violent and difficult.

Anyone listening to Times Radio? A piece on Hamas attacking aid workers delivering food and aid

Your first paragraph tells me you've never taken the time to research the history. How should I have phrased the way Christians and Jews were viewed - why should I be be walking on egg shells with the phrasing? The general Arab population aren't exactly coming to provide aid to their fellow countrymen and women, are they. You aren't willing to accept that Hamas don't want a resolution, that's not in line with their end goal. You also can't seem to accept that Islamic extremism strives for regional dominance, so it's pointless trying to ask what could be done, to prevent this in the future.

Thanks!

I lived in the region for a while so I take a bit of an interest there.

Thanks!

Genuinely interested why these two immediately sprung to mind for you?

Because I think they're genuinely happy to have a diplomatic and economic relationship with Israel, they have enormous influence in the region, they're countries went (are going, in the case of Saudi) through their own social transformations, and they're generally quite sanely run.

They're also, very importantly, very anti-Islamist, for instance the Muslim Brotherhood is banned in both countries.

Genuinely interested why these two immediately sprung to mind for you?

I don’t think statements like yours are helpful when justifying Israel’s actions. It may not have been your intention but “Look back centuries to see that Jews and christians were treated like dogs by arabs” sounds like a fairly sweeping statement about Arab people rather than just Islamic extremism. To me, it lumps Islamic extremists like Hamas in with the general Arab population.

Again, what’s important is why extremism of any kind finds its feet in a population and drives people to kill others. The form of extremism is relevant in that there is a religious element to the conflict but that isn’t enough. There also need to be conditions within a place for those views to spread or gain enough traction to end up in power. That’s the bit that’s important because there will always be Islamic extremists. What’s key is that the conditions in a country or area aren’t bad enough for that to become a valid option. And that is where Israel’s role needs to be examined. They are not to blame for Hamas’s actions but they have played a role in the conflict that needs to be addressed so the dynamic doesn’t continue.

Who does this work, I’m not sure.

Saudi needs to lead the way, probably in conjunction with the UAE.

To clarify, I definitely don’t think it is solely Israel’s fault that we are where we are. Hamas are terrorists and have caused an incredible amount of harm over their time leading. I think Israel do have to accept they have played some role in the conflict that started way before 7/10z

I agree that a lot of work will need to be done within Gaza and WB in the aftermath to build a successful two state system. Who does this work, I’m not sure. Hopefully not the West as they don’t have the best track record!

You don't think any if that is relevant? You think this all appeared out of thin air? You can try and analyse Islamic extremism, all you want, but its ideology isn't ever going to change.

Justifying a lot of innocent people dying by saying “Look back centuries to see that Jews and christians were treated like dogs by arabs” is much more of a concern to me.

I’m happy to stick to thinking about why Hamas exist and analysing the information available to us and not assuming anything based on centuries old conflicts.

why people commit horrendous acts of violence.

Because they hate Jews and are raging that they have a country on what they consider their land.

What I find quite frustrating, and unfair, is the assumption that the reason that Palestinians aren't "free" and living peacefully within a two-state solution, is down to Israel.
The heads of various countries are now talking again about the two-state solution as part of recognising Palestine.

In reality, the only reason something like that will work is the massive, massive deradicalisation of Gaza and probably the West Bank. Because a sizable propoprtion of Palestinians, when they talk about being "free", mean that they want the whole thing. From the river to the sea. That's why Palestine supporters often wear necklaces with a pendant showing the whole of Israel excluding the Golan Heights.

Although plenty of Palestine supporters on on for instance X, are well aware, and are happy to scream that the entire population of Israel, which is majority non-European, should "fuck off back to Poland".

Do you think the same extremist group would’ve arisen in that area of Israel was a Christian country? Or would all the same factors by a Christian neighbour/oppressor change the narrative/core aim of ‘Hamas’?

Again, I’m not defending Hamas. But I stand by the fact that to stop it happening again, you have to understand Israel’s role, how extremism spreads, why people commit horrendous acts of violence.