Many pro-Palestinians DO actually support Hamas

Israel are committing war crimes withholding food and water.

There’s nothing to debate about that.

I don't claim to be righteous - and in my heart I don't think anyone else is either. But I do claim to be a good, moral person

I'm not opening images with "sensitive content". I don't need to see upsetting things to know that civilians are dying in Gaza including babies and children.

Everyone posting on here already knows what happens in wars generally and what is happening in this one specifically. It would be nice if people were allowed to debate politely without attempts to stop debate with shocking images. Because it's not like civilians dying didn't happen on 7/10 either and it's not like hostages haven't been abused and killed but we don't need to keep posting images about that either.

Haha, that sounds religious so it couldn't possibly be me, could it?! Redefining words to reassure yourself that no, that's not what you are doing is hilarious. Good for you!!

“The right judgement”
”justified”

@GladioliGreen being "righteous" is not something I aspire to in any area of my life. It sounds religious and I'm not so I couldn't care less about that.

Maybe dig a bit deeper into that feeling- sometimes what feels like the ‘right side’ isn’t so simple.

I really struggle to see how the murder of over 17,000 children and the forced starvation of nearly 2 million people can be called the ‘right judgement.’ How can you say they will be safer, when the reality is there may be virtually no Palestinians left. Their homes and lands are being decimated, and Israeli settlers are already moving in as we speak.

There’s a lot to unpack beneath the surface of this conflict, and I hope we all keep questioning what we think we know.

Agreed.

Plus I will never think I was on the wrong side for sticking up for Israel after 7/10 or for wondering why their government & army are supposed to be so moral whereas Hamas are "just Hamas... we can't expect anything from them."

Or for wondering why people don't care a little bit more about how pro Palestinian protests affect Jewish people if there are people there chanting anti Israel slogans or with anti Israel banners. I know it isn't everyone and most protestors are peaceful but there always seems to be that racist element, such as at the most recent big protest in Sydney.

Doesn't mean I have to agree with everything Netanyahu says or his army does. But I do believe Israel are justified in being in a war with Hamas. I don't see that they have any real alternative than to keep fighting until Hamas agree to hand over their weapons and release the hostages.

You don't have to agree with me. Like I said it's just an observation that this thread reads like posters desperately trying to reassure each other and themselves that they are righteous.

The CITME section of Mumsnet is basically " barbershop talk" online.

A place where people opine and put the world to rights without having any influence yay or nay on ninety nine percent of which they speak.
" Right side of history" is the secular version of " pray or else you won't go to heaven". With those who trumpet this phrase having the same flat eyed conviction that the religious often do that everybody lives their lives , or should through the same philosophical prism that they do.

Without realising how dramatic and unhinged they sound to people just doing what people have been doing since creation..without subscribing some dramatic arc to their activities.

No wonder so many of the younger are anxious about life if they are too busy wondering how they will be viewed after they are dead.

Somebody has to tell them that they will be forgotten and much quicker than they think. No matter how sanctified a life they have lead.

Why would I care what ‘side of history’ I’m on? I’ll be a long time dead and historical perspectives are always changing.

When I think I’m wrong about something I admit it to myself.

This is interesting, and I'm sure mirrored in the UK. I often wonder what the age profile is of posters on the CITME threads.

www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/02/younger-americans-stand-out-in-their-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/

I've had a good look at and listen to what's happening in the middle east and north Africa in the last fifty years, had a good look at and listen to the UK over the same and I've drawn my conclusions.

Btw there is always rubble somewhere, it never truly clears, but for some reason it doesn't get so much attention.

What I see on this thread is a lot of people trying to persuade themselves that they are on the right side of history. But the other 'side' are terrorist supporters, they are stupid, they are indoctrinated to hate Jews, we must be right.

Give it a few years, when the rubble is cleared it will finally sink in for you.

What's your take on it?

Are you surprised that war can amplify voices that would otherwise remain fringe?

How kind of you to say....

What's your take?
I would say uncritical support for either side is about as simplistic as things can't get.

The world really needs to stop acting as if this is a simple goodies and baddies situation and hold perpetrators of evil actions on both side to account if there is ever going to be lasting peace. Alas, I feel we are a long way away from that

If you believe neither side wants an end to the suffering, what do you think ‘the world’ can do about it?

I’m sorry but I think your take is naive and simplistic.

Good point. I mentioned Iran - but you’re right it’s not just Hamas, of course.

I’m not particularly conspiracy-minded but I agree that there is a bigger picture.

"There are no uninvolved in Gaza" - Israeli rabbi Ronen Shaulov has called for every child in Gaza to be starved to death this week, saying that "not a trace can remain" of Gaza and there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians.

Ronen Shaulov is popular in Israel with a large social media following.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DM5fONlo7sW/?img_index=1&igsh=MXIzeWlnMHoyeXJ2Yg==

Would welcome your thoughts on this.

That's kind of my point. It's not simple. I don't think either radical Islamists or Netanyahu's government wants peace or an end to suffering.

It’s not that simple, though. We/the West are not the world’s police, judge and jury. And again, I think you miss the point that radical Islamists don’t want peace or an end to the suffering.

I’m not desperately trying to do anything. Merely trying to understand what you are saying given you have likened Hamas to a child being burned alive by their parent, and suggested that they are somehow “lesser” compared to Israel.

To quote @EsmaCannonball

The truly scary thing about Hamas propaganda is that they have proved there is nothing they can do that is so bad it will lose them support in the west. Film yourselves gleefully beheading a Thai man with a garden hoe? Hold a fake funeral ceremony for a baby and a toddler you kidnapped and murdered? Film a young man you have kidnapped and slowly starved being made to dig his own grave? Yep, all fine.

In this context, the distinction between a state military group and a militant group matters, how?

What difference does that distinction make?

Why is it so important to you that we must recognise that Hamas is not bound by International law.

Does that somehow make any of the above “lesser” in some way?

As you said “accountability matters”. Do you apply that to everyone. Or only those who are bound by International law?

I don’t understand what you are trying to say.

Pro-Palestinians see themselves as humanitarian, progressive and compassionate, they are wedded to that view of themselves, and they suffer cognitive dissonance when something challenges it, and that’s exactly what Hamas’s propaganda plays on.

I actually think you can say similar things about Pro-Isreal camp.

It's like people have lost the ability to see nuance and think critically and instead have throw blind support towards their chosen side, ignoring its wrong-doings.

All the while Palestinians and Isreali hostages bear the brunt by experiencing unimaginable suffering.

The world really needs to stop acting as if this is a simple goodies and baddies situation and hold perpetrators of evil actions on both side to account if there is ever going to be lasting peace. Alas, I feel we are a long way away from that.