More words from the UK and 26 others

Definitely better to try to be at least a bit objective and think to yourself ...things could be true or they might not be.

Both sides have been caught out in lies (though Hamas more so, in my opinion).

I agree with you @Dangermoo that Israel should have immediately released the full and sick footage of the massacre.

I wouldn't have said so at the time due to privacy reasons and decency but look at how Hamas are weaponizing the horrors of war for their own sick propaganda.

I also agree with your suggestion @FriggingInsomnia that maybe Israel should have turned the WiFi off in Gaza and kept it off so the internet couldn’t be flooded with Hamas propaganda.

They would have got massively criticised for that of course. But in hindsight, it would have been better not to allow Hamas & their supporters to flood the internet with their fake videos etc.

I think it's a case of not being blinded by Hamas propaganda and trying to be objective. We have to remember most of the statistics and news feed from Gaza is from Hamas and therefore it is prudent to question the validity without question.

No one argues this isn't a grim conflict as all conflicts are but to completely take the point of view of one of the combatants doesn't seem that wise.

Another wrong assumption. Not everyone applies the lazy approach to the conflict. Israel, bad, Palestine, good.

Can you point out what I said that is incorrect in the first two paragraphs of my post as you obviously disagree with it.

I’ll put it here again for ease of reference:

The doctors are not eye witnesses to how injuries occurred and I have not heard any say they are.

One thing that sticks out though is that they never mention Hamas and deny seeing any trace of them despite evidence Hamas have been embedded in hospitals they have worked in, Hamas fighters would very likely have needed treatment for injuries, and these were hospitals that hostages were also kept in.

I agreed with that too at the time, although Israel was obviously in a position of trying to preserve the dignity of the dead knowing full well a lot of people would get a kick out of seeing the atrocities inflicted on Jewish people (although they weren’t only Jewish of course).

Almost two years later, I’m not sure it would have made much difference to the hard core pro-Pals who are the ones shouting loudest, with frenzy, in full delusion that it’s Israel/Jews who are the monsters. They would have refused to watch it, like Greta and co, and even if government ministers watched it, they would have gone with trying to appease those who shout the loudest. Look at the marches and clear terrorist support they’ve allowed to go on until now.

No, I think Israel read that correctly with hindsight.

There we have it, the IDF's actions in Gaza are about revenge on all Palestinians.

Because of the evil horrors of 7/10 everything and anything that happens to the Gazans is justified

You don't appear to know anything about the independent nature of many of the NGO's that have operated in Gaza do you? over many years, to you they are ALL Pro Hamas.

I bet you think Jan Egeland of the Norwegian Refugee Council is also "Pro Hamas"

Pointless arguing with someone like you.

Israel should have immediately released the full and sick footage of the massacre.

I will also answer and say, I criticise Israel for not separating civilians from Hamas from the start. Israel should have insisted Egypt take them in to the Sinai while they went full throttle on Hamas. Gaza would still have been destroyed as they would have had to destroy the tunnels and booby traps but there would have been few civilian deaths as Hamas wouldn’t have had them to hide behind, and the war would have been over a lot quicker.

Problem is though, would the Palestinians have left voluntarily?

Mistakes are made in every war, more so in this environment with Hamas’ MO. I have never seen the dissecting of everything the IDF is doing hour by hour in any other war, and SM posts pouring out of a war zone daily. This is deliberate to generate anger and hatred of Israel and Jewish people, and most are unverified and lies such as the Holy Family Church and Taybeh village being destroyed.

Do we see any SM posts or daily updates from Sudan where there is vastly more death, starvation and displacement than there is in Gaza?

Maybe Israel should have turned the WiFi off in Gaza and kept it off so the internet couldn’t be flooded with Hamas propaganda. Maybe Hamas would have surrendered earlier and returned the hostages if they knew they weren’t getting all the global support from that very successful campaign. That could be another criticism.

@mouthpipette I don’t support their actions.

I don’t support more Settlements being built.

Removing the existing Settlers? That is harder and I’m no expert on the matter. But my understanding is that they are illegal settlements so I think the Israeli government should be giving the families incentives to move away rather than encouraging them to stay. Netanyahu is giving completely the wrong message in encouraging more Settlers, in my opinion.

Many of the pro Israel commentators on these threads are not fans of Netanyahu, not just me.

I cannot look at these awful links any more than I could watch footage of atrocities against people anywhere, including in the past . What is being done to Palestinians is just pure evil now. I just can’t understand how those justifying this action aren’t ashamed. I read somewhere that in the long term, everyone will say they were speaking out against this atrocity, and I think that’s correct. How can anyone just stand by and accept it?

Thanks for responding and if you were being tarred with the same brush as the other two, then that is my error.
Out of curiosity, "I don’t support the Settlers", as in "I don't support their actions" or " I think they should be removed from the West bank " ?

The doctors are not eye witnesses to how injuries occurred and I have not heard any say they are.

One thing that sticks out though is that they never mention Hamas and deny seeing any trace of them despite evidence Hamas have been embedded in hospitals they have worked in, Hamas fighters would very likely have needed treatment for injuries, and these were hospitals that hostages were also kept in.

TBF I doubt many Western doctors would work in Gaza unless they were supportive of Hamas. There would surely be a massive risk to them from Hamas if they weren’t.

Of course Hamas can hang around shooting Gazans at will. According to their figures, none have been killed, so there’s 45 000 at least hanging around - they’re not governing Gaza are they, they still have tunnels, still imbedded with civilians and the IDF can’t just open fire on groups of civilians because they think they’re Hamas can they?

The faux naivety of pro-Pals would be hilarious if it wasn’t so dangerous in terms of igniting outrage and Jew hatred, and attacks on Jewish people.

I’ve answered this question so many times.

At the risk of totally boring people who have heard it dozens of times before, I don’t support the Settlers & I didn’t agree with the Israel government decision to withhold humanitarian aid. I also think the IDF actions have become disproportionate in the way they will risk killing ( & sometimes actually kill) several civilians in the pursuit of one Hamas member.

I speak out against things I don’t like with the Israeli government & IDF far more than I see most people on the other side speak out against Hamas.

@Twiglets1 Has definitely been critical of Israeli government actions over many threads I've seen. Apologies to @mids2019 & @Dangermoo , not familiar enough with your posting to comment.

Yes of course, they - English & US Doctors - are Hamas mouth pieces & Hamas has, despite 2 years of constant bombing, the means to hang around shooting Gazans at will, each and every day, under the gaze of Drones, US contractors and the IDF themselves.....

The Whistle blowers are liars and their eye witness accounts to be dismissed.

IF you re correct, why isn't the IDF stopping this? over 1000 people have been murdered since these 4 so called food depots were set up.

@Twiglets1 , @Dangermoo @mids2019

Your grim determination to find a reason / excuse for almost every one of Israel's actions is impressive and could be seen as an exemplar of blind allegiance.

I'd like to ask if there is anything that Israel has done over the last 20 months that you would be prepared to criticise, and if so what is it?

Or has every action of Israel been fully justifiable?

The doctors were not there when the injuries were inflicted so they don’t know if they were done be the IDF, Hamas or a criminal gang. They only know what they are told & it’s possible that some of the doctors are Hamas supporters too.

There are lots of sources saying Hamas are suffering financially now. This is allegedly partly because they no longer have the income stream of selling humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza.

Surely the hostages don’t matter to the IDF that much because they must know whatever punishment they are handing out to the people in Gaza includes the hostages that are there? How do you think the hostages are eating and drinking?

On the Doctors, My understanding is they treated the victims and noted a pattern of injuries.... they were there.

Leading NGO's/UN say that was not the case, some abuse but we did not see the levels of hunger now nor the shootings at aid stations, which does suggest the people doing the shooting are not Hamas, as this wasn't happening prior & the IDF does say they fired shots... but in self defence.

Its the IDF that say it was a Hamas income stream.

Agreed the current system leaves a lot to be desired

But so did the old system where aid equally wasn't being distributed properly as much of it ended up in Hamas hands giving them an income stream.

But why do you assume the doctors know what happened, they weren't there!

They are only going by what they are told and they work for a Hamas run health authority. Some of the injured and families of the dead will be Hamas supporters. I don't necessarily think the doctors are lying although some of them could be for all we know. But if they weren't there, it's hearsay.

Eventually, the truth, as in most conflicts will emerge and i believe it will show that the Israeli Govt took part in war crimes & deliberately targeted civilians.

Its supporters will have to explain why they dismissed opposing views and supported the Israeli Govt in these.

This is why the UK and others are now trying to distance themselves from the Israeli Govt.

Oh, of course. One man in a shoe shop, who is actually out there, knows less than you. Hamas and Palestinians engineer the suffering of Gazans to facilitate their mission. Of course it's one big black market - innocent Palestinians - are fucked over by Hamas and its supporters. They are used as pawns but not by Israel. Tug at the heartstrings by depicting children being killed looking for food and water. The reality isn't the one you're seeing.