Israels plan for Gazas future

Why did Hamas agree to invade Israel, commit a mass scale terrorist attack murdering over a thousand and injuring thousands more, take hundreds of hostages (some of which they are still holding), which they knew would bring a full scale war onto unprotected civilians they consider as cannon fodder?

Do you seriously think Hamas give a flying fuck about Gazan civilians?

Err because they are

• currently in a war zone, with massive destruction making most of it unliveable, brought upon them by their own government
• who has provided no safe civilian areas or bomb shelters for their people,
• who are using hospitals as bases meaning they have to evacuated,
• who have publicly stated they want civilians to die,
• who are stealing aid meant for their people and selling it at massively inflated prices when it’s meant to be free,
• threatening civilians with death and shooting them for taking free aid because they can’t make money off it to pay their fighters and continue the war,
• refusing to surrender despite their own figures indicating a heavy loss of life
• also killing and torturing any dissenters who want the war to stop.

Do you not think civilians who want no part in this war would be safer in a non hostile country like Egypt with free access to aid without the threat of being killed by their own government and their government using them as human shields? Where the war could be over quicker and they can work towards returning to their land with a government who actually wants to govern and improve their lives instead of a terrorist organisation who has destroyed any hope of a peaceful outcome if they remain in power?

Why should any country have to take in refugees fleeing war?

I assume you support the UK and Europe doing so?

What an odd argument from someone you would think cares about Palestinians being allegedly genocide?

Exactly. If this is the so called plan why would Hamas agree to it. Disgusting way to treat people but then I’m not surprised at Netanyahu at all.

I repeat: nobody is buying it. We see through it.

I actually know what those words mean and only use them appropriately when needed. I don’t feel the need to play into your games thank you.

@Xyloplane

"They can never answer those questions I’m afraid."

I just have.

@MissyB1

"Im interested in knowing why you think Palestinians shouldn't just be allowed to live safely in their own land? Why should they have to live in refugee camps in Egypt? Why should Egypt have to take them in when the Palestinians have (or did have) their own land?"

Err because they might actually want to leave?

By your logic the UK should never take in any refugees from any part of the world - because they have their own land.

Maybe you should think about becoming a Reform candidate?

They can never answer those questions I’m afraid.

I’m glad you find it all so amusing. Typical behaviour.

Im interested in knowing why you think Palestinians shouldn't just be allowed to live safely in their own land? Why should they have to live in refugee camps in Egypt? Why should Egypt have to take them in when the Palestinians have (or did have) their own land?

Fair enough we’ll have to agree to disagree. I think people will die in large numbers if the camps go ahead. Disease, lack of healthcare, starvation.

But yes I agree that any plan that restricts the movement of people has serious human rights concerns.

I don’t know if it does need international consensus. I can’t imagine there will be many clapping on this plan. All it needs is US blessing.

Before going, I will answer this.

Egypt manages the Rafah crossing and closed it to Gazan civilians when the war started, saying they were worried about their security and a big influx of refugees.

Since then, they have repeatedly refused to open the border for Gazans fleeing the conflict, even when Israel proposed allowing medically vulnerable or severely harmed individuals to exit.

While Israel restricts some movement, Rafah is 100% on Egypt.

To answer your question as to why nobody pressures Egypt to do what would happen in any other conflict, that is a bloody good question that pisses me off daily.

So straight ethnic cleansing rather than genocide is your suggestion.

Oh goody...

Thank you. I have read the article.

Here's the definition of a "death camp"....

A death camp (also called an extermination camp) is a specific type of facility designed solely or primarily to kill large numbers of people, usually as part of a systematic, state-sponsored genocide.

The term most commonly refers to the Nazi extermination camps during the Holocaust, such as Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, Chelmno, and Majdanek. These were not labour camps - though some had attached work sites - but were built with the explicit goal of mass murder, primarily by gas chambers, starvation, and forced medical experimentation.

What Israel has announced in Gaza - creating a controlled humanitarian zone for displaced civilians during a war - is not a death camp.

The facts are that Gaza is a warzone that has become uninhabitable after months of fighting against a terror group that fires rockets from schools and hides in tunnels under hospitals. Civilians must be relocated to an area where they can have shelter, food and some kind of infrastructure.

How that will happen actually remains to be seen - as I said, it will require international consensus so AFAIK there might be a new plan tomorrow.

Whatever plan there is, movement may be restricted, and that raises serious human rights concerns which must be balanced with realistic security concerns of all civilians (Palestinians and Israelis).

But it is not a death camp nor a concentration camp. You can criticise Israeli policy without hijacking Holocaust language.

@Twiglets1 Thanks :) I will stay on MN for the next few days - recovering from an op and a few days off work! But I will exit this particular thread as it doesn't seem to be a good faith discussion about plans for Gaza, which for an Egyptian is actually quite an important issue.

Because they’re not refugees. It’s pretty simple if you’re not a racist or a coloniser. It’s Palestinian land-why should they leave?

Can anyone clarify if it is Israel that is refusing to let Gazans leave to safety in Egypt or that Egypt is refusing to grant them entry?

If the latter is true why is there not more international pressure on Egypt?

Surely that is a better option than ‘death camps’?

I second this. I‘ve found your post immensely informative and valuable @ForgesOfEmpires

@ForgesOfEmpires

"I am going to leave it. I have spent decades of my life listening to this same nonsense."

Unfortunately the views are so entrenched and brainwashed that the facts, local knowledge and your well written and logical posts are quite simply wasted on the self hating of the West liberal contingent.

My fear, as we have already seen with Palastine Action, is the potential radicalisation of this contingent and the terrorist risk this raises to the rest of society.

But I share your frustration and I get much more clarity and logic on Gaza from my Jordanian friends than some left wing angry keyboard warrior on MN.

We are talking about the new internment/death camp proposal that has been put forward by the Israeli government.

this thread isn’t about before the war or even about what is happening right now, it is purely about the new proposal which some are calling a blueprint for crimes against humanity. It is a real thing and although it hasn’t happened yet. It’s worth speaking about as it is a plan.

Why don’t you go read an article about it and then come back and say whether it is a good idea and what you would call the camps.

@ForgesOfEmpires your contribution on this thread and others has been very valuable and illuminating to many of us.

I understand it can be exhausting talking to people who move the goalposts, don't respond to what you actually say, make up things and are more interested in getting into arguments on MN than having a sensible discussion.

I just wanted to say, of course it's obvious that you do understand the subject of the thread (better than most, including me) & you haven't derailed it. The personal insults & point scoring always just come out at a certain point.

Take some time out if you are feeling exhausted by it but please come back!

Here’s the reality: Gaza is an active warzone. Much of it has been reduced to rubble - not because anyone wants that outcome, but because Hamas embedded its fighters, weapons, and command centres inside civilian areas, in schools, hospitals, homes. As a result, large parts of Gaza are currently uninhabitable. People need to be moved somewhere safer - not permanently, not to imprison them, but to survive and get on.

They can't be kept in collapsed buildings, in crossfire, with no food, water, or medical support so people will have to work together on a solution. I take these news articles and announcements with a pinch of salt for many reasons - not least that what happens next will have to be by international consensus.

Inventing a death camp with sniper towers or shoot-to-kill orders is just not a factual claim. Why you are all doing it is beyond me, but seeing as this thread appears to be a "make crap up about the Jews" kind of thing, I am going to leave it. I have spent decades of my life listening to this same nonsense.