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Conflict in the Middle East

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Israels plan for Gazas future

958 replies

MixedMetals · 07/07/2025 22:40

Defense Minister Israel Katz said Monday that he has instructed the IDF to prepare a plan to establish a "humanitarian city" on the ruins of Rafah, which would eventually house the entire population of the Gaza Strip.

According to Katz, the plan involves moving 600,000 Palestinians, primarily from the al-Muwasi area, into the new zone after security screening. Once inside, residents would not be allowed to leave, the defense minister said.

Katz added that, if conditions permit, construction of the "city" would begin during the 60-day Israel-Hamas cease-fire currently under negotiation.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-07-07/ty-article/.premium/defense-minister-israel-to-concentrate-all-gaza-population-in-rafah-humanitarian-zone/00000197-e56a-d1ad-ab97-e5ef764e0000

Defense minister: Israel to concentrate all Gaza population in Rafah 'humanitarian' zone

***

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-07-07/ty-article/.premium/defense-minister-israel-to-concentrate-all-gaza-population-in-rafah-humanitarian-zone/00000197-e56a-d1ad-ab97-e5ef764e0000

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sualipa · 09/07/2025 14:10

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 13:49

They aren't just fringe crazies but are or have recently been part of the government.
Not relevant, our government also have fringe crazies. Government policy almost always doesn't reflect these gotcha quotes.

Most countries have dodgy politicians, but not all of them use state power to occupy, bomb, or control another population for decades.
I dispute the premise. The "other population" has been bombing Israel for decades whilst openly engaged in an outward policy of complete annihilation. Most countries would have fought a war to end it years ago, as Europe did in WWII.

And no, the left doesn’t “side with Hamas” most people I know are supporting Palestinians, not terrorists.
I have seen almost nobody from the left calling for the hostages to be returned, calling for Hamas to be destroyed or doing much other than "criticising Israel" or calling for it's dismantlement. In fact, hostage posters and ribbons are ripped off, and at the weekly protests, those holding signs calling Hamas to be removed are often arrested.

You can oppose Hamas and think bombing civilians is wrong.
Civilians are not being targeted. Civilians should have been evacuated.

Also, the Israelis who criticise their own gov aren’t being erased they’re often the ones being shared because they prove criticising Israel isn’t antisemitic.
No they are not. the ones being shared are the fringe ones who run cover for antisemites, the ones who want to "end zionism" (what even is that???). The regular, normal ones who think their country should exist and understand Hamas must be stopped but who are also advocates for peace and kindness are completely muted.

But inside Israel, they're the ones being silenced.
No, Jews in Israel who protest the government are not silenced. In fact, Israel has one of the most vibrant and active protest cultures in the world.

Hamas is vile, but they didn’t appear out of nowhere. Israel’s policies helped destroy moderates and create the conditions for Hamas to thrive.
Nonsense. Hamas evolved from the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, Its 1988 charter declared its aim to destroy Israel and establish an Islamic state in historic Palestine. It rejected peaceful solutions and was openly antisemitic, quoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and calling for jihad. Israel had provided far better conditions in Gaza than Egypt did, hugely and measurably. Hamas didn't care what Israel's policies were - they wanted Israel and Jews to be dead.

If you only ever talk about Hamas and never mention what Palestinians live through daily no state, no rights, constant surveillance and bombing – then you're only telling half the story.
I have mentioned those things 500 times.

This isn’t about picking sides. It’s about caring that innocent people – Israeli and Palestinian – are being killed in a cycle that won’t end just because one side has better PR.
I do care, hence I want Hamas gone and for people to stop encouraging them subtly or less subtly.

Here’s my hero, Gideon Levy, facing the righteous wrath of bystanders simply for trying to educate Israelis and the world about a deeper, often uncomfortable truth.
That explains a lot. Gideon Levy portrays nearly everything Israel does through the lens of occupation and oppression, often ignoring or downplaying terrorism, security threats, or the broader context. He routinely excuses and sanitises Hamas and other violent actors.

He regularly mocks Israeli fears of terrorism or missile attacks, treating them as paranoia rather than legitimate threats. He has called IDF soldiers "war criminals" as a blanket label, which is quite a statement given who they are fighting.

Levy rarely, if ever, seriously critiques Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, or the broader culture of antisemitism and martyrdom glorification within Palestinian society. He gives Palestinian actors a moral free pass while scrutinising only one side.

As I understand it, even many on the Israeli left see Levy as unhelpful to the cause of peace and his work is regularly quoted and promoted by far-left and antisemitic circles globally who weaponise his Israeli identity to justify their hostility to the Jewish state.

I recently watched him on a debate about whether anti zionism was antisemitism and he sat on the side with Medhi Hassan, a notorious antisemite in my opinion and his justifications were absolutely pathetic.

I have thought a great deal over the last couple of years on this particular quandary, why there are some seemingly educated people - even israelis - who seem to make arguments against Israel's right to exist and I find it quite fascinating.

What I have come to is that there is a blind spot in the morality of the world when it comes to Jews. There always has been, but after WWII it became less socially acceptable to outwardly root for the annihilation of Jewish people, so now it's been re-worked as a social justice movement that simply calls for the annihilation of the Jewish state.

The weaponry used against the Jews now is ironically, the very same protections that were created as a result of the enormous shame the world felt after allowing (and in many cases actively participating) in the murder of 6 million of them. Language used to describe that murder is transferred to them when they act to defend themselves against a group openly trying to do it again.

Getting back your hostages and stopping a terror organisation who are openly trying to kill you and purposefully put as many of their own people in harms way whilst you becomes genocide.

Moving people out of harms way becomes ethnic cleansing.

A thriving city with malls, coffee shops, luxury villas, universities and 4 star hotels becomes a concentration camp.

Living with 2 million Muslims with completely equal rights becomes apartheid.

People suddenly start pretending importing weapons is a "human right".

Basically the ensure thing is designed to delegitimise Israel and therefore sanitise the murder of Jews and the stripping them of their rights. Maybe there are no Nuremberg Laws, but we will ban them from singing contests, or kick them out of parties or social groups.

What is required of them is simple: to renounce for themselves and only for themselves, the right of self determination, to peace and to security - whilst simultaneously being willing to condemn their people and possibly family and friends to death in order to provide those rights for another group that is trying to kill them.

It will be studied in universities one day, for sure!

But Gideon Levy, and the likes of him, have I think made a nice career and social standing for themselves by applying standards or rights to their own people that they wouldn't dream of applying to anyone else.

Life has it's cowards.

Edited

I haven't the energy or the time at the moment so I will adress only your last comment. In the end, life doesn't just have cowards it also has those rare people brave enough to tell hard truths, even when it's unpopular, even when it costs them and leaves them hated by the mob. People like Gideon Levy aren’t enemies of Israel they’re part of its conscience. They don’t want to see the country destroyed; they want it to be better, to live up to the values it claims to stand for.

You can be fiercely against Hamas and still believe that the lives of ordinary Palestinians matter. You can support Jewish safety and self-determination without supporting permanent occupation, endless war, or the suffering of another people. These things aren’t contradictions they’re what make peace possible.

Real courage isn’t just found on the battlefield. Sometimes it’s found in words, in questions, in refusing to look away. If Israel and the world wants a future that’s more than just survival, it will have to start by listening to voices that challenge it, not just the ones that reassure it.

That’s what I think anyway and it’s the lesson I learned from my dear father, who loved both the world and his children, and who fought, in his own way, for the sake of both and I for one will take that lesson to my grave.

MixedMetals · 09/07/2025 14:03

Anonimummy · 09/07/2025 13:55

And………..

Is it only Israelis who aren’t allowed to react with words when they’ve suffered one of the most, if not THE most, barbaric acts of terrorist atrocities in modern history? Along with hundreds of civilians, including international citizens, and babies and children, taken hostage?

I’d fully expect my government to reflect the anger of its citizens if that happened in the UK, as with any other country who had suffered a similar event.

What did you expect them to say after Oct 7th?

‘We forgive you, come join us in one state, you can kill as many of us as you like’?

I also think the Israeli government knows the Palestinians, and Gaza, much better than you or I.

I wouldn’t want my soldiers killed if I was in charge either.

Is it only Israelis who aren’t allowed to react with words when they’ve suffered one of the most, if not THE most, barbaric acts of terrorist atrocities in modern history?

How disingenuous is this! The problem is that they followed through with their actions and this latest plan is part of that, we all know that. Don't pretend it's just the words, nobody is buying what you are selling.

OP posts:
Anonimummy · 09/07/2025 13:55

sualipa · 09/07/2025 12:28

Amihai Eliyahu (Heritage Minister, Otzma Yehudit)

On using a nuclear weapon:
“That is one way.”, when asked if nuking Gaza was an option
On humanitarian aid:
“We wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid,” adding that “there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza.”
“They can go to Ireland or deserts, the monsters in Gaza should find a solution by themselves.”
“The Gaza Strip has no right to exist,” and anyone waving a Palestinian or Hamas flag “shouldn’t continue living on the face of the earth.”

Yoav Gallant (Defence Minister)
“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed.”
“We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”
“Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything. … We are mowing the lawn. The moment will also come when we will pull out the roots.”

Eli Cohen (Foreign Minister)
“At the end of this war, not only will Hamas no longer be in Gaza, the territory of Gaza will also decrease.”

Bezalel Smotrich (Finance Minister)
“No one in the world would let us starve and thirst two million citizens [of Gaza], even though it may be just and moral until they return our hostages.”
“Gaza will be totally destroyed … they will be totally despairing … and will be looking for relocation to begin a new life in other places.” (May 2025)

Avi Dichter (Agriculture Minister)
“We are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba.” (Nov 11, 2023)

Giora Eiland (Former National Security Council Head)
“The State of Israel has no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in.” (Oct 10, 2023)
“Create a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, compelling tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands to seek refuge in Egypt or the Gulf… Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.”

Benny Gantz (War Cabinet member, former Defence Minister)
“If you choose the path of fanatics and lead the entire nation to the abyss – we will be forced to quit the government.” (May 2024)
He added that neither Israel nor Hamas should govern Gaza post-conflict, insisting on a multinational civilian administration.

Nissim Vaturi (Deputy Knesset Speaker)
“Gaza must be burned … It is better to burn down buildings rather than have soldiers harmed. There are no innocents there… one hundred thousand remain. I have no mercy for those who are still there. We need to eliminate them.” (Jan 2024)

Edited

And………..

Is it only Israelis who aren’t allowed to react with words when they’ve suffered one of the most, if not THE most, barbaric acts of terrorist atrocities in modern history? Along with hundreds of civilians, including international citizens, and babies and children, taken hostage?

I’d fully expect my government to reflect the anger of its citizens if that happened in the UK, as with any other country who had suffered a similar event.

What did you expect them to say after Oct 7th?

‘We forgive you, come join us in one state, you can kill as many of us as you like’?

I also think the Israeli government knows the Palestinians, and Gaza, much better than you or I.

I wouldn’t want my soldiers killed if I was in charge either.

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 13:49

sualipa · 09/07/2025 13:23

They aren't just fringe crazies but are or have recently been part of the government. Most countries have dodgy politicians, but not all of them use state power to occupy, bomb, or control another population for decades. Saying “everyone has nutters” doesn’t excuse what’s happening in Gaza or the West Bank.

And no, the left doesn’t “side with Hamas” most people I know are supporting Palestinians, not terrorists. You can oppose Hamas and think bombing civilians is wrong. It’s not either/or.

Also, the Israelis who criticise their own gov aren’t being erased they’re often the ones being shared because they prove criticising Israel isn’t antisemitic. But inside Israel, they're the ones being silenced.

Hamas is vile, but they didn’t appear out of nowhere. Israel’s policies helped destroy moderates and create the conditions for Hamas to thrive. That’s not justifying them, it’s facing facts.

If you only ever talk about Hamas and never mention what Palestinians live through daily no state, no rights, constant surveillance and bombing – then you're only telling half the story.

This isn’t about picking sides. It’s about caring that innocent people – Israeli and Palestinian – are being killed in a cycle that won’t end just because one side has better PR.

Here’s my hero, Gideon Levy, facing the righteous wrath of bystanders simply for trying to educate Israelis and the world about a deeper, often uncomfortable truth. My father’s best friend was a conscientious objector who married an Austrian Jewish woman who had fled the Nazis in 1938. While my father enlisted as soon as he could, he always said his friend was far braver than he could ever have been. That man was spat on in the street, had his windows smashed, and was shunned by his community yet he stood firm for what he believed was morally right, regardless of the consequences. The world needs more people like him, and fewer who believe that violence is always the correct response to violence.

https://x.com/Africa4Pal/status/1615782449388343296

They aren't just fringe crazies but are or have recently been part of the government.
Not relevant, our government also have fringe crazies. Government policy almost always doesn't reflect these gotcha quotes.

Most countries have dodgy politicians, but not all of them use state power to occupy, bomb, or control another population for decades.
I dispute the premise. The "other population" has been bombing Israel for decades whilst openly engaged in an outward policy of complete annihilation. Most countries would have fought a war to end it years ago, as Europe did in WWII.

And no, the left doesn’t “side with Hamas” most people I know are supporting Palestinians, not terrorists.
I have seen almost nobody from the left calling for the hostages to be returned, calling for Hamas to be destroyed or doing much other than "criticising Israel" or calling for it's dismantlement. In fact, hostage posters and ribbons are ripped off, and at the weekly protests, those holding signs calling Hamas to be removed are often arrested.

You can oppose Hamas and think bombing civilians is wrong.
Civilians are not being targeted. Civilians should have been evacuated.

Also, the Israelis who criticise their own gov aren’t being erased they’re often the ones being shared because they prove criticising Israel isn’t antisemitic.
No they are not. the ones being shared are the fringe ones who run cover for antisemites, the ones who want to "end zionism" (what even is that???). The regular, normal ones who think their country should exist and understand Hamas must be stopped but who are also advocates for peace and kindness are completely muted.

But inside Israel, they're the ones being silenced.
No, Jews in Israel who protest the government are not silenced. In fact, Israel has one of the most vibrant and active protest cultures in the world.

Hamas is vile, but they didn’t appear out of nowhere. Israel’s policies helped destroy moderates and create the conditions for Hamas to thrive.
Nonsense. Hamas evolved from the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, Its 1988 charter declared its aim to destroy Israel and establish an Islamic state in historic Palestine. It rejected peaceful solutions and was openly antisemitic, quoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and calling for jihad. Israel had provided far better conditions in Gaza than Egypt did, hugely and measurably. Hamas didn't care what Israel's policies were - they wanted Israel and Jews to be dead.

If you only ever talk about Hamas and never mention what Palestinians live through daily no state, no rights, constant surveillance and bombing – then you're only telling half the story.
I have mentioned those things 500 times.

This isn’t about picking sides. It’s about caring that innocent people – Israeli and Palestinian – are being killed in a cycle that won’t end just because one side has better PR.
I do care, hence I want Hamas gone and for people to stop encouraging them subtly or less subtly.

Here’s my hero, Gideon Levy, facing the righteous wrath of bystanders simply for trying to educate Israelis and the world about a deeper, often uncomfortable truth.
That explains a lot. Gideon Levy portrays nearly everything Israel does through the lens of occupation and oppression, often ignoring or downplaying terrorism, security threats, or the broader context. He routinely excuses and sanitises Hamas and other violent actors.

He regularly mocks Israeli fears of terrorism or missile attacks, treating them as paranoia rather than legitimate threats. He has called IDF soldiers "war criminals" as a blanket label, which is quite a statement given who they are fighting.

Levy rarely, if ever, seriously critiques Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, or the broader culture of antisemitism and martyrdom glorification within Palestinian society. He gives Palestinian actors a moral free pass while scrutinising only one side.

As I understand it, even many on the Israeli left see Levy as unhelpful to the cause of peace and his work is regularly quoted and promoted by far-left and antisemitic circles globally who weaponise his Israeli identity to justify their hostility to the Jewish state.

I recently watched him on a debate about whether anti zionism was antisemitism and he sat on the side with Medhi Hassan, a notorious antisemite in my opinion and his justifications were absolutely pathetic.

I have thought a great deal over the last couple of years on this particular quandary, why there are some seemingly educated people - even israelis - who seem to make arguments against Israel's right to exist and I find it quite fascinating.

What I have come to is that there is a blind spot in the morality of the world when it comes to Jews. There always has been, but after WWII it became less socially acceptable to outwardly root for the annihilation of Jewish people, so now it's been re-worked as a social justice movement that simply calls for the annihilation of the Jewish state.

The weaponry used against the Jews now is ironically, the very same protections that were created as a result of the enormous shame the world felt after allowing (and in many cases actively participating) in the murder of 6 million of them. Language used to describe that murder is transferred to them when they act to defend themselves against a group openly trying to do it again.

Getting back your hostages and stopping a terror organisation who are openly trying to kill you and purposefully put as many of their own people in harms way whilst you becomes genocide.

Moving people out of harms way becomes ethnic cleansing.

A thriving city with malls, coffee shops, luxury villas, universities and 4 star hotels becomes a concentration camp.

Living with 2 million Muslims with completely equal rights becomes apartheid.

People suddenly start pretending importing weapons is a "human right".

Basically the ensure thing is designed to delegitimise Israel and therefore sanitise the murder of Jews and the stripping them of their rights. Maybe there are no Nuremberg Laws, but we will ban them from singing contests, or kick them out of parties or social groups.

What is required of them is simple: to renounce for themselves and only for themselves, the right of self determination, to peace and to security - whilst simultaneously being willing to condemn their people and possibly family and friends to death in order to provide those rights for another group that is trying to kill them.

It will be studied in universities one day, for sure!

But Gideon Levy, and the likes of him, have I think made a nice career and social standing for themselves by applying standards or rights to their own people that they wouldn't dream of applying to anyone else.

Life has it's cowards.

MixedMetals · 09/07/2025 13:45

MissyB1 · 09/07/2025 13:36

sorry you've just given a list of things hamas has done wrong. You haven't answered why the civilian population shouldn't be allowed to live safely in their own land. No I dont think they want to be removed from their Country. And who told you they would be allowed to return? Last we heard from Trump and Netanyahu (the war criminal), Gaza was to become a holiday playground. Also weirdly you say they should go to Egypt, and then you say no Country should have to take in refugees? Which is it you want? I absolutely do support the UK taking refugees from war torn Countries by the way, do you?

It's a bit of a coincidence how all of sudden with the announcement of this plan people have realised how much destruction has been wreaked on Gaza and how dangerous it is there and are now advocating for them to able to leave, embedding this idea that they will be able to return despite all evidence to the contrary.

A cynical person would say that they know full well they will never be able to return but will do anything that helps to get them over that border.

OP posts:
MissyB1 · 09/07/2025 13:36

Anonimummy · 08/07/2025 19:01

Err because they are

  • currently in a war zone, with massive destruction making most of it unliveable, brought upon them by their own government
  • who has provided no safe civilian areas or bomb shelters for their people,
  • who are using hospitals as bases meaning they have to evacuated,
  • who have publicly stated they want civilians to die,
  • who are stealing aid meant for their people and selling it at massively inflated prices when it’s meant to be free,
  • threatening civilians with death and shooting them for taking free aid because they can’t make money off it to pay their fighters and continue the war,
  • refusing to surrender despite their own figures indicating a heavy loss of life
  • also killing and torturing any dissenters who want the war to stop.

Do you not think civilians who want no part in this war would be safer in a non hostile country like Egypt with free access to aid without the threat of being killed by their own government and their government using them as human shields? Where the war could be over quicker and they can work towards returning to their land with a government who actually wants to govern and improve their lives instead of a terrorist organisation who has destroyed any hope of a peaceful outcome if they remain in power?

Why should any country have to take in refugees fleeing war?

I assume you support the UK and Europe doing so?

What an odd argument from someone you would think cares about Palestinians being allegedly genocide?

sorry you've just given a list of things hamas has done wrong. You haven't answered why the civilian population shouldn't be allowed to live safely in their own land. No I dont think they want to be removed from their Country. And who told you they would be allowed to return? Last we heard from Trump and Netanyahu (the war criminal), Gaza was to become a holiday playground. Also weirdly you say they should go to Egypt, and then you say no Country should have to take in refugees? Which is it you want? I absolutely do support the UK taking refugees from war torn Countries by the way, do you?

sualipa · 09/07/2025 13:23

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 13:08

My issue with posts like this is that I could dig up similar quotes from politicians in the UK, the US, or pretty much any country - we've all had our share of awful, inflammatory figures. Yes, Israel has its fair share of appalling politicians. But let’s be honest: if your country had endured what Israel has - thousands of rocket attacks, massacres, and neighbours openly calling for your destruction - what do you think our own politicians would sound like?

My honest view? Israel attracts right wing support because the left side with Hamas. And I have seen that time and time again. Jewish people seem to culturally be fairly chill and they protest their gov a lot and have newspapers and groups that rabidly criticise them, and many of them were working hard for peace with Palestine, including giving them free legal help, medical care etc. but ultimately nobody cares about that.

Those people are erased and the biggest crackpot people can find is wheeled out to portray Israelis as evil. which then justifies Israelis being treated like shit around the world - I mean, I have seen them banned from hotels, restaurants, people demanding they were kicked out of sports tournaments and so on. I don't understand it at all. They cannot ever do enough to meet what people demand from them,

More importantly, this kind of one-sided criticism ignores what the other side is saying - and doing. Hamas and similar groups aren’t just talking tough. Their genocidal language is written into their charters, shouted in public, taught in schools, and acted on in cold blood. They don’t say “we want to negotiate.” They say, “we want to kill every Jew,” and then they try to do it - targeting civilians, babies, grandmothers.

So here's my question: what do people actually think should happen? If Israel replaced every hardline politician with a peace-loving moderate, do you genuinely believe Hamas and its allies would lay down their weapons and stop trying to kill them?

They wouldn’t.

Israel has tried peace talks. It has withdrawn from territory. It’s released thousands of prisoners. It left Gaza entirely - and got war in return. There is nothing Israel can do in the eyes of groups like Hamas - and whether people like it or not these groups are the representatives of Palestine - that can solve anything.

So why don't people instead share the quotes of Hamas? Why don't people focus on holding them to account? Why don't people ever expend even 5% of the energy doing that? Because maybe every time they denigrate Israel and ignore the elephant in the room they are empowering the very people who keep the conflict alive.

I recall spending so many years hating Bibi because he encapsulates everything I hated about Egypt and the middle east - I was soft and fuzzy and wanted everyone to have everything and because my mind worked that way I genuinely believed on 6th October 2023 that we were a few years away from peace and the blockade being removed.

Bibi believed, even resigned from government, that if Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and it would become a terror enclave that threatened Israel and I thought he was nuts at the time. But he was right, and they are openly saying he was right. So do I get why Israeli people vote for this? Yes, because they probably don't want to get killed. And I honestly believe when the threat is removed everything else will fall into place. So what I want to know isn't what some dick head said, but what is being done to save Palestinians from the eternal loop of trying to destroy Israel? Because whatever people here think, honestly that is never going to happen. The only question is how many more people die to prove it.

They aren't just fringe crazies but are or have recently been part of the government. Most countries have dodgy politicians, but not all of them use state power to occupy, bomb, or control another population for decades. Saying “everyone has nutters” doesn’t excuse what’s happening in Gaza or the West Bank.

And no, the left doesn’t “side with Hamas” most people I know are supporting Palestinians, not terrorists. You can oppose Hamas and think bombing civilians is wrong. It’s not either/or.

Also, the Israelis who criticise their own gov aren’t being erased they’re often the ones being shared because they prove criticising Israel isn’t antisemitic. But inside Israel, they're the ones being silenced.

Hamas is vile, but they didn’t appear out of nowhere. Israel’s policies helped destroy moderates and create the conditions for Hamas to thrive. That’s not justifying them, it’s facing facts.

If you only ever talk about Hamas and never mention what Palestinians live through daily no state, no rights, constant surveillance and bombing – then you're only telling half the story.

This isn’t about picking sides. It’s about caring that innocent people – Israeli and Palestinian – are being killed in a cycle that won’t end just because one side has better PR.

Here’s my hero, Gideon Levy, facing the righteous wrath of bystanders simply for trying to educate Israelis and the world about a deeper, often uncomfortable truth. My father’s best friend was a conscientious objector who married an Austrian Jewish woman who had fled the Nazis in 1938. While my father enlisted as soon as he could, he always said his friend was far braver than he could ever have been. That man was spat on in the street, had his windows smashed, and was shunned by his community yet he stood firm for what he believed was morally right, regardless of the consequences. The world needs more people like him, and fewer who believe that violence is always the correct response to violence.

https://x.com/Africa4Pal/status/1615782449388343296

https://x.com/Africa4Pal/status/1615782449388343296

Whatsinanamehey · 09/07/2025 13:23

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 13:12

No, I do not think it is "ethnic cleaning" to move people out of a warzone. Please don't twist what I say especially in such revolting ways.

I advocated, from day 1 for those children to be removed from Gaza, but they were kept there to have their limbs blown off by people who decided it was better to let them stay.

Do you know how many times Israel deny medical evacuations of children and how difficult it is to get permission from the Israeli government to evacuate sick children to countries who are willing to take them?

nearlylovemyusername · 09/07/2025 13:21

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 13:12

No, I do not think it is "ethnic cleaning" to move people out of a warzone. Please don't twist what I say especially in such revolting ways.

I advocated, from day 1 for those children to be removed from Gaza, but they were kept there to have their limbs blown off by people who decided it was better to let them stay.

This is interesting. I remember at the beginning of war in Ukraine there were stories about people in Eastern part of the country who couldn't flee themselves for whatever reasons they were trying to get children to safety, even unaccompanied or with neighbours, strangers etc.

Why didn't this happen for Gazans?

MixedMetals · 09/07/2025 13:18

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 13:12

No, I do not think it is "ethnic cleaning" to move people out of a warzone. Please don't twist what I say especially in such revolting ways.

I advocated, from day 1 for those children to be removed from Gaza, but they were kept there to have their limbs blown off by people who decided it was better to let them stay.

Just because you think it's not ethnic cleansing to remove people from their land and never let them return it doesn't mean that that isn't exactly what it is.

OP posts:
ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 13:12

MixedMetals · 09/07/2025 13:01

Ethnic cleansing is never the solution. That's why I didn't answer your question because genuinely you are here trying to persuade people that ethnic cleansing is a viable solution.

Not oh people will say that moving Gazans somewhere while their homes are rebuilt ethnic cleansing because that's not what is being proposed, but actual stay in this camp for the rest of your life or leave forever ethnic cleansing.

Advocating on a parenting website for a million children who have already been displaced, lost limbs, orphaned, starved, to be ethnically cleansed from their homeland and you expect people to answer your questions about whether Israelis have the right to safety? Cop on.

No, I do not think it is "ethnic cleaning" to move people out of a warzone. Please don't twist what I say especially in such revolting ways.

I advocated, from day 1 for those children to be removed from Gaza, but they were kept there to have their limbs blown off by people who decided it was better to let them stay.

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 13:08

sualipa · 09/07/2025 12:28

Amihai Eliyahu (Heritage Minister, Otzma Yehudit)

On using a nuclear weapon:
“That is one way.”, when asked if nuking Gaza was an option
On humanitarian aid:
“We wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid,” adding that “there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza.”
“They can go to Ireland or deserts, the monsters in Gaza should find a solution by themselves.”
“The Gaza Strip has no right to exist,” and anyone waving a Palestinian or Hamas flag “shouldn’t continue living on the face of the earth.”

Yoav Gallant (Defence Minister)
“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed.”
“We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”
“Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything. … We are mowing the lawn. The moment will also come when we will pull out the roots.”

Eli Cohen (Foreign Minister)
“At the end of this war, not only will Hamas no longer be in Gaza, the territory of Gaza will also decrease.”

Bezalel Smotrich (Finance Minister)
“No one in the world would let us starve and thirst two million citizens [of Gaza], even though it may be just and moral until they return our hostages.”
“Gaza will be totally destroyed … they will be totally despairing … and will be looking for relocation to begin a new life in other places.” (May 2025)

Avi Dichter (Agriculture Minister)
“We are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba.” (Nov 11, 2023)

Giora Eiland (Former National Security Council Head)
“The State of Israel has no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in.” (Oct 10, 2023)
“Create a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, compelling tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands to seek refuge in Egypt or the Gulf… Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.”

Benny Gantz (War Cabinet member, former Defence Minister)
“If you choose the path of fanatics and lead the entire nation to the abyss – we will be forced to quit the government.” (May 2024)
He added that neither Israel nor Hamas should govern Gaza post-conflict, insisting on a multinational civilian administration.

Nissim Vaturi (Deputy Knesset Speaker)
“Gaza must be burned … It is better to burn down buildings rather than have soldiers harmed. There are no innocents there… one hundred thousand remain. I have no mercy for those who are still there. We need to eliminate them.” (Jan 2024)

Edited

My issue with posts like this is that I could dig up similar quotes from politicians in the UK, the US, or pretty much any country - we've all had our share of awful, inflammatory figures. Yes, Israel has its fair share of appalling politicians. But let’s be honest: if your country had endured what Israel has - thousands of rocket attacks, massacres, and neighbours openly calling for your destruction - what do you think our own politicians would sound like?

My honest view? Israel attracts right wing support because the left side with Hamas. And I have seen that time and time again. Jewish people seem to culturally be fairly chill and they protest their gov a lot and have newspapers and groups that rabidly criticise them, and many of them were working hard for peace with Palestine, including giving them free legal help, medical care etc. but ultimately nobody cares about that.

Those people are erased and the biggest crackpot people can find is wheeled out to portray Israelis as evil. which then justifies Israelis being treated like shit around the world - I mean, I have seen them banned from hotels, restaurants, people demanding they were kicked out of sports tournaments and so on. I don't understand it at all. They cannot ever do enough to meet what people demand from them,

More importantly, this kind of one-sided criticism ignores what the other side is saying - and doing. Hamas and similar groups aren’t just talking tough. Their genocidal language is written into their charters, shouted in public, taught in schools, and acted on in cold blood. They don’t say “we want to negotiate.” They say, “we want to kill every Jew,” and then they try to do it - targeting civilians, babies, grandmothers.

So here's my question: what do people actually think should happen? If Israel replaced every hardline politician with a peace-loving moderate, do you genuinely believe Hamas and its allies would lay down their weapons and stop trying to kill them?

They wouldn’t.

Israel has tried peace talks. It has withdrawn from territory. It’s released thousands of prisoners. It left Gaza entirely - and got war in return. There is nothing Israel can do in the eyes of groups like Hamas - and whether people like it or not these groups are the representatives of Palestine - that can solve anything.

So why don't people instead share the quotes of Hamas? Why don't people focus on holding them to account? Why don't people ever expend even 5% of the energy doing that? Because maybe every time they denigrate Israel and ignore the elephant in the room they are empowering the very people who keep the conflict alive.

I recall spending so many years hating Bibi because he encapsulates everything I hated about Egypt and the middle east - I was soft and fuzzy and wanted everyone to have everything and because my mind worked that way I genuinely believed on 6th October 2023 that we were a few years away from peace and the blockade being removed.

Bibi believed, even resigned from government, that if Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and it would become a terror enclave that threatened Israel and I thought he was nuts at the time. But he was right, and they are openly saying he was right. So do I get why Israeli people vote for this? Yes, because they probably don't want to get killed. And I honestly believe when the threat is removed everything else will fall into place. So what I want to know isn't what some dick head said, but what is being done to save Palestinians from the eternal loop of trying to destroy Israel? Because whatever people here think, honestly that is never going to happen. The only question is how many more people die to prove it.

MixedMetals · 09/07/2025 13:01

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 12:50

I have already given a very clear answer on the thread topic, and explained also quite clearly that it's not important if the situation continues as it has. No worries if you don't want to answer. Most people find it easier to just bang on and on and on about Israel being so awful without providing material alternatives.

Ethnic cleansing is never the solution. That's why I didn't answer your question because genuinely you are here trying to persuade people that ethnic cleansing is a viable solution.

Not oh people will say that moving Gazans somewhere while their homes are rebuilt ethnic cleansing because that's not what is being proposed, but actual stay in this camp for the rest of your life or leave forever ethnic cleansing.

Advocating on a parenting website for a million children who have already been displaced, lost limbs, orphaned, starved, to be ethnically cleansed from their homeland and you expect people to answer your questions about whether Israelis have the right to safety? Cop on.

OP posts:
ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 12:50

MixedMetals · 09/07/2025 11:56

I typed out an answer to a your questions and then deleted it because do you know what I am really sick of these silly distractions. Really what we are talking about here, right now, are actual plans from Israel who have already destroyed Gaza, who have openly spoken about their wish to ethnically cleanse them and have unveiled how they plan to do this. That is the pressing issue right now. The people who are actively being 'concentrated' into a small part of Gaza, who are now facing, if Israels plans go ahead, the choice between life in a camp forever or leave their homeland forever.

Why you want to talk about every thing but the actual thread topic is beyond me. I'm concerned about the actual plans for ethnic cleansing that I can see unfolding before my eyes supported by the UK government. That is why I started this thread. Not to discuss everything but that.

I have already given a very clear answer on the thread topic, and explained also quite clearly that it's not important if the situation continues as it has. No worries if you don't want to answer. Most people find it easier to just bang on and on and on about Israel being so awful without providing material alternatives.

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 12:46

Tooblondetooyoung · 09/07/2025 11:30

It's not lazy. I'm just sick of victim blaming, and the quote you mentioned froths with racist victim blaming. It's disgusting and needs to be called out.

"Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us"

If you find this to be racist victim-blaming, I can provide you with some alternative quotes:

Ismail Haniyeh (after three of his sons and grandchildren were killed)
“thanks be to God for bestowing upon us the honor of their martyrdom,”

Yahya Sinwar
In a written message sent to Hamas leaders in Qatar on April 11, Sinwar praised the growing civilian death toll in Gaza, saying the thousands of civilian casualties “are necessary sacrifices” and will “infuse life into the veins of this nation, prompting it to rise to its glory and honour.”

A mother in Gaza (after all four of her sons dyed committing murder)
“I don't have even one son now … we consider them martyrs with Allah. Praise Allah!”

The original Hamas Charter called for “fighting and killing Jews” and article 8 states: “Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.”

In Hamas-run kindergartens, the slogan “The children of the kindergarten are the shahids [martyrs] of tomorrow” is displayed on classroom walls.

So, yeah, she certainly had a point.

Was the wrong to use the word "Arabs"? No, at the time those fighting Israel did not use the name "Palestinians" commonly - they were part of an Arab League and referred to themselves as the Arabs.

The Arab League governments and leadership at the time, were engaged in repeated wars and boycotts against Israel and refused to recognise its existence. The statement was made in the era when the Arab League had adopted the "Three No’s" policy:

No peace with Israel
No recognition of Israel
No negotiations with Israel

Meir was expressing frustration that Arab leadership seemed more committed to Israel’s destruction than to peace, prosperity, or stability for their own people - including Palestinian Arabs, who often suffered the most from these policies.

Now? Obviously not all Arabs think there is glory in their children dying in order to murder Jewish people, and almost all do not feel that way. But certainly there is a significant issue with this in Gaza with children themselves being indoctrinated even in school to believe this. Which you hopefully agree is quite horrible.

The idea Golda Mier was a racist is for the birds. Meir advocated equal rights for Arab citizens of Israel, and Arab MKs (members of Knesset) served in Israeli parliaments during her tenure. As tends to be the case the narrative is reversed - she was offering equality and trying for peace while the other side was calling for death to the Jews.

Twiglets1 · 09/07/2025 12:38

Tooblondetooyoung · 09/07/2025 11:18

Back to 'look what they made us do'. We don't stand for that with abusers, and we won't here either.

We don't stand for "look what they made us do" with Hamas massacre on October 7th.

DrPrunesqualer · 09/07/2025 12:37

sualipa · 09/07/2025 12:28

Amihai Eliyahu (Heritage Minister, Otzma Yehudit)

On using a nuclear weapon:
“That is one way.”, when asked if nuking Gaza was an option
On humanitarian aid:
“We wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid,” adding that “there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza.”
“They can go to Ireland or deserts, the monsters in Gaza should find a solution by themselves.”
“The Gaza Strip has no right to exist,” and anyone waving a Palestinian or Hamas flag “shouldn’t continue living on the face of the earth.”

Yoav Gallant (Defence Minister)
“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed.”
“We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”
“Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything. … We are mowing the lawn. The moment will also come when we will pull out the roots.”

Eli Cohen (Foreign Minister)
“At the end of this war, not only will Hamas no longer be in Gaza, the territory of Gaza will also decrease.”

Bezalel Smotrich (Finance Minister)
“No one in the world would let us starve and thirst two million citizens [of Gaza], even though it may be just and moral until they return our hostages.”
“Gaza will be totally destroyed … they will be totally despairing … and will be looking for relocation to begin a new life in other places.” (May 2025)

Avi Dichter (Agriculture Minister)
“We are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba.” (Nov 11, 2023)

Giora Eiland (Former National Security Council Head)
“The State of Israel has no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in.” (Oct 10, 2023)
“Create a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, compelling tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands to seek refuge in Egypt or the Gulf… Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.”

Benny Gantz (War Cabinet member, former Defence Minister)
“If you choose the path of fanatics and lead the entire nation to the abyss – we will be forced to quit the government.” (May 2024)
He added that neither Israel nor Hamas should govern Gaza post-conflict, insisting on a multinational civilian administration.

Nissim Vaturi (Deputy Knesset Speaker)
“Gaza must be burned … It is better to burn down buildings rather than have soldiers harmed. There are no innocents there… one hundred thousand remain. I have no mercy for those who are still there. We need to eliminate them.” (Jan 2024)

Edited

Thankyou for posting @sualipa. Those comments are truly shocking!

nearlylovemyusername · 09/07/2025 12:31

Whatsinanamehey · 09/07/2025 12:23

It is a cynical insinuation that the Arab people love their children less than Israelis love theirs.

You are struggling with comprehension.

It was about Arabs loving their children more than they hate Israelis. Means they stop sending their sons (and daughters, whatever age) to kill Israelis and dying themselves.

sualipa · 09/07/2025 12:28

Amihai Eliyahu (Heritage Minister, Otzma Yehudit)

On using a nuclear weapon:
“That is one way.”, when asked if nuking Gaza was an option
On humanitarian aid:
“We wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid,” adding that “there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza.”
“They can go to Ireland or deserts, the monsters in Gaza should find a solution by themselves.”
“The Gaza Strip has no right to exist,” and anyone waving a Palestinian or Hamas flag “shouldn’t continue living on the face of the earth.”

Yoav Gallant (Defence Minister)
“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed.”
“We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”
“Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything. … We are mowing the lawn. The moment will also come when we will pull out the roots.”

Eli Cohen (Foreign Minister)
“At the end of this war, not only will Hamas no longer be in Gaza, the territory of Gaza will also decrease.”

Bezalel Smotrich (Finance Minister)
“No one in the world would let us starve and thirst two million citizens [of Gaza], even though it may be just and moral until they return our hostages.”
“Gaza will be totally destroyed … they will be totally despairing … and will be looking for relocation to begin a new life in other places.” (May 2025)

Avi Dichter (Agriculture Minister)
“We are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba.” (Nov 11, 2023)

Giora Eiland (Former National Security Council Head)
“The State of Israel has no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in.” (Oct 10, 2023)
“Create a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, compelling tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands to seek refuge in Egypt or the Gulf… Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.”

Benny Gantz (War Cabinet member, former Defence Minister)
“If you choose the path of fanatics and lead the entire nation to the abyss – we will be forced to quit the government.” (May 2024)
He added that neither Israel nor Hamas should govern Gaza post-conflict, insisting on a multinational civilian administration.

Nissim Vaturi (Deputy Knesset Speaker)
“Gaza must be burned … It is better to burn down buildings rather than have soldiers harmed. There are no innocents there… one hundred thousand remain. I have no mercy for those who are still there. We need to eliminate them.” (Jan 2024)

veiledsentiments · 09/07/2025 12:26

According to Amos Goldberg, historian of the Holocaust at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, what the defence minister laid out was clear plans for the ethnic cleansing of Gaza:
[it is] a transit camp for Palestinians before they expel them. It is neither humanitarian nor a city.

Israel details plan for 'humanitarian zone' in Rafah, called a 'concentration camp' by critics - Harici

Israel reveals a plan for a 'humanitarian zone' in Rafah for Gaza's civilians, but experts warn it's a 'concentration camp' and a crime against humanity.

https://harici.com.tr/en/israel-details-plan-for-humanitarian-zone-in-rafah-called-a-concentration-camp-by-critics/

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 12:25

Whatsinanamehey · 09/07/2025 11:23

What a load of racist shit.

How is this racist?

Whatsinanamehey · 09/07/2025 12:23

Anonimummy · 09/07/2025 12:05

So is that a No that you don’t think Palestinian terrorism, including Oct 7th, has any bearing on the current war at least?

Just for clarity.

Please explain how Meir was being racist in what she said?

The Arab countries who started wars against Israel weren’t Arabs?

Edited

It is a cynical insinuation that the Arab people love their children less than Israelis love theirs.

1dayatatime · 09/07/2025 12:23

@Jumpupjumphigh

"Israel are occupying a land that does not belong to them."

Exactly what land?
West Bank - then yes I agree with you

Gaza - well there's a war going on, so I wouldn't describe it as an occupation and once Hamas are gone and the hostages freed then I'm sure that Israel will be glad to get out of that vipers nest just as the Ottomans, British and Egyptians were glad to get out of Gaza.

Or are you suggesting that the state of Israel should not exist?

sualipa · 09/07/2025 12:18

I'm not a big fan of either of them. Campbell, for his unforgivable role in the dodgy dossiers on Iraq and the relentless pressure that contributed to Dr. David Kelly’s death. And Rory, because he’s so often wrong—take the 2016 U.S. election, for example. On the night Trump won (which I saw coming and even won £100 betting on it), Rory was confidently telling everyone it was impossible. Not because of facts, but because he simply couldn’t imagine a world where his own worldview didn’t prevail.

But credit where it’s due: they’ve finally turned on Israel's prosecution of the war and have rightly said it’s impossible to defend what’s happening. Quite.

DrPrunesqualer · 09/07/2025 12:12

So everyone. Where the hell is Gaza.