Israels plan for Gazas future

Ilan Pappé, an Israeli born historian, who, due to his research, was hounded out of Israel and now lives in the UK, even though no one could refute his research.

Norman Finkelstein is a US Jewish professor, who doesn’t appear to have a racist bone in his body, but appears to have studied and realised how awfully the Israeli governments have treated the Palestinians over the years.

Noam Chomsky, a socialist in his youth maybe, but tried on many occasions to reconcile himself with Israel, but eventually came to the conclusion that he could not get along with Zionism.

Avi Shlaim, an Iraqi Jew, well to do, who had to flee Iraq because of perceived persecution from bombs planted in the Jewish areas in Baghdad, only later in life after doing research to find out the bombs were planted by Mossad agents.
He names them in his book 3 Worlds, Memoirs of an Arab Jew.

As I said, two sides to every story. Things can be interpreted differently.

Nah love, request denied

a. The Likud government will place its aspirations for peace at the top of its priorities and will spare no effort to promote peace. The Likud will act as a genuine partner at peace treaty negotiations with our neighbors, as is customary among the nations. The Likud government will attend the Geneva Conference. .
b. The Likud governments peace initiative will he positive. Directly or through a friendly state. Israel will invite her neighbors to hold direct negotiations, in order to sign without pre-conditions on either side and without any solution formula invented by outsiders (invented outside ).

The leopard has changed its spots?

I said:

So if you are looking for a library of authors to support the "Jews colonised Israel" narrative, they are probably the gold standard. If you want to hear the other side too and make your own mind up then maybe add in some variety with...

Yes, my personal take on it is that you should read both sides and then form your own view once you have all the information.

That current charter doesn't though. Have you read it?

Have you read the Likud one? I asked but you again didn't mention?

Article 27:
The Palestinian Liberation Organization is the closest to the heart of the Islamic Resistance Movement. It contains the father and the brother, the next of kin and the friend. Our homeland is one, our situation is one, our fate is one and the enemy is a joint enemy to all of us. Secularism completely contradicts religious ideology. Attitudes, conduct and decisions stem from ideologies. That is why, with all our appreciation for The Palestinian Liberation Organization - and what it can develop into - and without belittling its role in the Arab-Israeli conflict, we are unable to exchange the present or future Islamic Palestine with the secular idea. The Islamic nature of Palestine is part of our religion and whoever takes his religion lightly is a loser. The day The Palestinian Liberation Organization adopts Islam as its way of life, we will become its soldiers, and fuel for its fire that will burn the enemies.
Article 28:
Arab countries surrounding Israel are asked to open their borders before the fighters from among the Arab and Islamic nations so that they could consolidate their efforts with those of their Muslim brethren in Palestine. As for the other Arab and Islamic countries, they are asked to facilitate the movement of the fighters from and to it, and this is the least thing they could do.
Article 30: Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educators and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty. Jihad is not confined to the carrying of arms and the confrontation of the enemy. The effective word, the good article, the useful book, support and solidarity - together with the presence of sincere purpose for the hoisting of Allah's banner higher and higher - all these are elements of the Jihad for Allah's sake.
Article 31:
Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror.
Article 32:
World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle.
Article 33:
The Islamic Resistance Movement, being based on the common coordinated and interdependent conceptions of the laws of the universe, and flowing in the stream of destiny in confronting and fighting the enemies in defence of the Muslims and Islamic civilization and sacred sites, the first among which is the Aqsa Mosque, urges the Arab and Islamic peoples, their governments, popular and official groupings, to fear Allah where their view of the Islamic Resistance Movement and their dealings with it are concerned. They should back and support it, as Allah wants them to, extending to it more and more funds till Allah's purpose is achieved when ranks will close up, fighters join other fighters and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty while loudly proclaiming: Hail to Jihad. Their cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about.
Article 34:
Palestine is the navel of the globe and the crossroad of the continents. Since the dawn of history, it has been the target of expansionists. Expansionists have more than once put their eye on Palestine which they attacked with their armies to fulfill their designs on it. Thus it was that the Crusaders came with their armies, bringing with them their creed and carrying their Cross. They were able to defeat the Muslims for a while, but the Muslims were able to retrieve the land only when they stood under the wing of their religious banner, united their word, hallowed the name of Allah, and surged fighting under the leadership of Salah ed-Din al-Ayyubi.
Article 35:
The present Zionist onslaught has also been preceded by Crusading raids from the West and other Tatar raids from the East. Just as the Muslims faced those raids and planned fighting and defeating them, they should be able to confront the Zionist invasion and defeat it.
Article 36:
The Islamic Resistance Movement adopts Islam as its way of life. Islam is its creed and religion. Whoever takes Islam as his way of life, be it an organization, a grouping, a country or any other body, the Islamic Resistance Movement considers itself as their soldiers and nothing more.

But that’s just your personal take on it. I will have a look at your recommendations. However, it doesn’t necessarily mean I’m going to agree with how you have dissed the other authors. Surely a measured view of both sides might be a better way to understand the problems.

The original Hamas charter, does say that, and far more. In fact it is explicitly genocidal and antisemitic. While they laundered it for better PR, they still say the same things on TV!

To get a clearer idea?

Happy to provide a quick Mumsnet review:

Ilan Pappé – Denies Jewish self-determination and accuses Jews of plotting ethnic cleansing, while the other side literally has a charter promising to wipe Jews from the earth. Perfect for anyone who loves a good oppressor/oppressed fairy tale where Jews are the villains and Palestinians get a free pass.

Norman Finkelstein – Haven’t read much, mostly because he gives off strong “please like me, Gen Z” energy and partly because the one essay I did read was both logically incoherent and bizarrely racist towards Black people. Not exactly a high bar.

Noam Chomsky – Great if you're 16, own a Che Guevara mug, and think everything is America’s fault. His takes on Israel reduce wildly complex dynamics to “colonialism bad,” and he politely sidesteps the awkward antisemitism floating around the far left.

Avi Shlaim – Either has a grudge or just no clue. I distinctly remember reading some nonsense where he blamed Zionists for the Jewish exodus from Arab countries. As someone from Egypt, I can tell you: our 75,000 Jews were purged - citizenship revoked, assets seized, synagogues trashed, people jailed or vanished. But apparently, that was the Jews fault for wanting a homeland. Brilliant.

So if you are looking for a library of authors to support the "Jews colonised Israel" narrative, they are probably the gold standard. If you want to hear the other side too and make your own mind up then maybe add in some variety with...

The Fate of the Jews, 2000 Years as a Diaspora People – Pierre van Paassen
Israel: A Concise History of a Nation Reborn – Daniel Gordis
The Founding Myths of Israeli Policy – Georges Bensoussan
The Claim of Dispossession – Arieh L. Avneri
The Jews of Arab Lands: A History and Source Book – Norman Stillman
In Ishmael’s House: A History of Jews in Muslim Lands – Martin Gilbert
Letters to My Palestinian Neighbor – Yossi Klein Halevi
Islamic Imperialism: A History – Efraim Karsh
Islamic Antisemitism – Bat Ye’or
The Indigenous Jews of the Middle East: Forgotten Refugees – Lyn Julius
The Jewish State: The Struggle for Israel's Soul – Yoram Hazony
The War of Return – Einat Wilf & Adi Schwart

What part deflected from your post mentioning ‘invading army’
Who am I demeaning?

Copy of previous post re Netanyahus plan presented to the UNGA September 2023. If it’s blurry apologies suggest original shows the work Israel over Gaza better and of course there are many news articles on it too.

Depends why you're reading, and how much time you have.

???? The thread title. Israel’s plan for Gaza. If you RTT it’s why I started posting. Here’s my post from 12:10 today. ( May I kindly request not to be referred to as love..thanks).

What plan love? What plan are you referring to?
Since Hamas are terrorists who don’t actually GAF about people in Gaza and have been recorded torturing Palestinians, why would the west do anything to help a terrorist regime?
If Hamas gave a crap about anything other than their ridiculous charter, the suffering would not be so terrible.

What I was asking for was a bit of sensitivity around describing this camp (which may never even be built) in that one particular way that could be triggering for Jewish people because of their unique & horrible history.

I realised subsequently that I had been naive and that even by asking for a bit of sensitivity I was just making it more not less likely that certain MNs would use the term frequently.

I was seeing things too much from my own perspective which is that if someone suggested to me that a particular word was triggering, I would find an alternative word.

LTheir charter doesn't say this. Are you aware that the Likud charter makes the same claim to the whole of the land as Hamas do.

Have you read either of their charters btw or are you just going on what you've read in the news?

I’m not. I blame them all. Along with those who support them all and send weapons. Along with those who seak to justify the actions on both sides. For too long conflict in Gaza and attacks on Israel have been allowed to continue whilst the world ‘does not see’. It continues. (. May I take this opportunity without this being seen as a deflection but this was my main reason for initially posting .,,,,, How do you feel about that plan. Was it just a little joke. You don’t have to respond. No one ever has since it’s been posted for over a year now on these threads. ). If I get any answers it would be amazing.

I welcome debate. Not deflection or demeaning others. I’d rather people answered my question upthread on Netanyahus map. But no one wants to speak of it for what it clearly is. No one has to of course it’s not for me to force others to speak of things they would rather not.

@DrPrunesqualer
I think the people in Gaza are suffering greatly.
Tell me why you purely blame idf and not Hamas?
Tell me why you are so concerned about ‘ethnic cleansing’ when Hamas have a charter documenting their plan to annihilate Israel and ‘Zionists’?
Tell me why you can’t support destroying Hamas to free Gaza?

Deflection?
It was you who mentioned ‘invading army’
How am I deflecting? Or you just pissed that some people don’t agree?

So, Gideon Levy is off the reading list. Who else? Ilan Pappe, Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomspki, Abi Shlain? Just so we know.

A deflecting post again. I won’t bother to honour any more with a response. Many of us have heard it all before. I however was responding to a pp who seemed to think the IDF having to leave Gaza was ethnic cleansing of the IDF. It isn’t. An occupying force can’t be ethnically cleansed from the country they are occupying.

Invading army in retaliation to the umpteenth attack from Islamic nutjobs who care more about another country existing than they do their own citizens.