Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Israels plan for Gazas future

958 replies

MixedMetals · 07/07/2025 22:40

Defense Minister Israel Katz said Monday that he has instructed the IDF to prepare a plan to establish a "humanitarian city" on the ruins of Rafah, which would eventually house the entire population of the Gaza Strip.

According to Katz, the plan involves moving 600,000 Palestinians, primarily from the al-Muwasi area, into the new zone after security screening. Once inside, residents would not be allowed to leave, the defense minister said.

Katz added that, if conditions permit, construction of the "city" would begin during the 60-day Israel-Hamas cease-fire currently under negotiation.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-07-07/ty-article/.premium/defense-minister-israel-to-concentrate-all-gaza-population-in-rafah-humanitarian-zone/00000197-e56a-d1ad-ab97-e5ef764e0000

Defense minister: Israel to concentrate all Gaza population in Rafah 'humanitarian' zone

***

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-07-07/ty-article/.premium/defense-minister-israel-to-concentrate-all-gaza-population-in-rafah-humanitarian-zone/00000197-e56a-d1ad-ab97-e5ef764e0000

OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
Madcatdudette · 09/07/2025 19:24

Twiglets1 · 09/07/2025 18:52

I consider Hamas way, way more responsible for this war than myself - like a million billion times more responsible so no, I don't accept that I am responsible for the death of this poor baby born in Hell.

Do you blame Hamas at all or just "our nations"?

I don’t either. To say the rest of the world is culpable while denying the terror Hamas operates is mad.
Hows about stop trying to piss Israel off and sort your own shit out, just like every other government should 🤷‍♀️

Twiglets1 · 09/07/2025 19:24

@itsagreayarea you said We are all responsible for the murder of these children & then reiterated ALL of us so yes, you were blaming me and everyone else who funds this with our taxes and not changing our governments’ policy.

You take collective responsibility if you want - count me out! To me, the responsibility lies firmly with Hamas.

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 19:21

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 19:09

No, there’s no public money transferred from the UK Treasury to Israel’s war effort. Your taxes have not funded the war.

Incorrect.
We don’t transfer money to the war, no, but DO pay to provide war support.
We pay for trade support and maintenance agreements which support transport of purchased arms.
We pay for military cooperation - intelligence and surveillance via our own naval and airspace capabilities operating for Israel. We all pay for use of international bases for weapons transport.

We train IDF personnel in military exercises.
We allow cargo from the US carrying weapons from our own banned lists to go unchecked.

Madcatdudette · 09/07/2025 19:20

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 18:52

There have been demonstrations IN GAZA for exactly this. Before Biden went they were “90% detailed or killed” apparently. Yet here we’re are a year later still killing infants. Who is Hamas now? Where is the list of people who are Hamas? Is it exhaustive? Is it the military arm? The political?

As Hamas were the actual government- is that anyone employed by the government? All the healthcare workers? The teachers and street cleaners?

Who are the current targets for committing terrorism? Netenyahu and the far right have decided this is all of Gaza.

Who are you referring to when you say ‘far right’?
Di you think that Gaza would be better off without a terrorist organisation in charge?

Madcatdudette · 09/07/2025 19:16

veiledsentiments · 09/07/2025 18:49

I have given clear reasons why I feel that way, this is what critical thinking is. You can try it now.

Because only you can do critical thinking? I also lived in the middle east for 45 years. I have an Arab husband. I am more than capable of reading up on the situation and forming my own opinions.

So as someone with ties to the Middle East citizen. What are your thoughts on Hamas and how they rule Gaza?
Do you not think that Gaza would stand more of a chance without Hamas rule?

Twiglets1 · 09/07/2025 19:14

Why is it my government's responsibility to try to stop the brutal war Hamas started and continues day after day?

They wanted to destroy Israel - yes even 8 month old babies like the one you refer to - am I supposed to feel sorry for poor Hamas that they aren't winning?

I won't accept that "we" are responsible. You believe that if you want to hate yourself or the West - I don't.

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 19:13

I simply wasn’t finished writing. What kind of blame scale are you expecting me to produce for you here?

And no one is naming YOU. And I don’t know what you mean by ‘people like you’. So stop centering it around yourself please.

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 19:11

veiledsentiments · 09/07/2025 19:09

Bibi’s new book maybe? Would that be a good benchmark? Bibi. My Story?

I have a list of wonderful books that have broad historical data included, rather than unsubstantiated theories. Please let me know how you get on!

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 19:09

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 19:05

This has not been a war for a long time.
We are responsible for funding this with our taxes and not changing our governments’ policy. We fund military cooperation, allow transport of indicted war criminals and provide arms used to remove the head from an 8month old’s body while that are starving in their cots.

ALL of us.

No, there’s no public money transferred from the UK Treasury to Israel’s war effort. Your taxes have not funded the war.

veiledsentiments · 09/07/2025 19:09

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 19:04

In the Middle East and North Africa 74% of adults agree with multiple antisemitic stereotypes, according to the ADL global survey. I witnessed that first hand. Maybe it would be good as a family to expand your reading beyond authors most Jews find to be antisemitic. That is a pretty good barometer.

Bibi’s new book maybe? Would that be a good benchmark? Bibi. My Story?

dairydebris · 09/07/2025 19:08

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 18:54

Of course I blame Hamas.fir risking the wellbeing of Palestinians. But our nations have let this get out of hand. Through supporting, we’ve perpetrated this. We’ve all watched this. And paid for it with our taxes.

Edited

I strongly refute that we perpetrated this, and can't understand this position at all.

I don't hold myself accountable for how any trade agreements are worked out. Any tax levels set. Any decisions made on education. Or any other nation's war strategy. I don't understand why anyone would.

I hold myself accountable for voting for those who's policies most align with my own opinions. And if decisions are taken that I dont agree with then I don't vote for that party anymore.

If you want collective responsibility for decisions taken by those in government then its a very, very dark road you're choosing. Are Gazans to also be held responsible for the decisions of Hamas? Are Israelis to be held responsible for the decisions of BN?

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 19:05

Twiglets1 · 09/07/2025 18:57

I don't consider myself responsible for things I've watched.

I'm aware of the war but didn't cause it. I don't even fight over parking spaces in Waitrose in case of retaliations, let alone start a fight on that scale knowing full well it would lead to a huge number of civilian deaths Israeli and Palestinian.

This has not been a war for a long time.
We are responsible for funding this with our taxes and not changing our governments’ policy. We fund military cooperation, allow transport of indicted war criminals and provide arms used to remove the head from an 8month old’s body while that are starving in their cots.

ALL of us.

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 19:04

veiledsentiments · 09/07/2025 18:49

I have given clear reasons why I feel that way, this is what critical thinking is. You can try it now.

Because only you can do critical thinking? I also lived in the middle east for 45 years. I have an Arab husband. I am more than capable of reading up on the situation and forming my own opinions.

In the Middle East and North Africa 74% of adults agree with multiple antisemitic stereotypes, according to the ADL global survey. I witnessed that first hand. Maybe it would be good as a family to expand your reading beyond authors most Jews find to be antisemitic. That is a pretty good barometer.

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 19:00

veiledsentiments · 09/07/2025 18:35

Ilan Pappé, an Israeli born historian, who, due to his research, was hounded out of Israel and now lives in the UK, even though no one could refute his research.

Norman Finkelstein is a US Jewish professor, who doesn’t appear to have a racist bone in his body, but appears to have studied and realised how awfully the Israeli governments have treated the Palestinians over the years.

Noam Chomsky, a socialist in his youth maybe, but tried on many occasions to reconcile himself with Israel, but eventually came to the conclusion that he could not get along with Zionism.

Avi Shlaim, an Iraqi Jew, well to do, who had to flee Iraq because of perceived persecution from bombs planted in the Jewish areas in Baghdad, only later in life after doing research to find out the bombs were planted by Mossad agents.
He names them in his book 3 Worlds, Memoirs of an Arab Jew.

As I said, two sides to every story. Things can be interpreted differently.

There is two sides to every story, and sometimes one side is bull shit. Facts are:

Ilan Pappé
Claim:
He was “hounded out of Israel” because no one could refute his research.
Reality:
Pappé wasn’t "hounded" - he left amid backlash because his academic methods were heavily criticised, including cherry-picking sources, misquoting, and inserting ideology into scholarship. Notably, he defended Teddy Katz’s fraudulent thesis claiming a massacre in Tantura - a case which Katz himself admitted in court was based on fabricated quotes. Many Israeli historians (including left-leaning ones) like Benny Morris do refute Pappé, accusing him of distorting evidence to push an anti-Zionist narrative. He wasn’t exiled — he chose to leave and continues to peddle a narrative that casts Zionism as evil and Palestinians as faultless victims, ignoring Arab rejectionism and terrorism entirely. And I think he makes a nice living covering for antisemites.

Norman Finkelstein
Claim:
A fair-minded Jewish academic who simply “realised how awfully Israel treats Palestinians.”
Reality:
Finkelstein is not some neutral observer - he’s a professional provocateur who routinely downplays Hamas terrorism. He’s been accused of antisemitism, not just by the right, but by liberal Jewish groups, for mocking Holocaust remembrance. He’s also been caught making deeply racist comments, including a grotesque letter describing Black neighbours as “apes” - a fact based on court-record evidence. In the particular article I was sorry enough to come across he was making some pseudo intellectual argument about how Black stereotypes were compliments!

Noam Chomsky
Claim:
Tried to reconcile with Israel but found Zionism incompatible.
Reality:
I don't have much of a problem with the guy, beyond the fact that as I said, he's spent decades blaming the US and Israel for virtually every geopolitical problem, while giving authoritarian regimes and terrorist groups a free pass. He sees the world through the typical "west bad" eye glasses that I think i really immature, but it is how most college students see the world. Then they grow up and realise actually America is not the devil.

Avi Shlaim
Claim:
Discovered that the bombs in Iraq that caused the Jewish exodus were planted by Mossad, and names them in Three Worlds.
Reality:
His claim is based on a single claim from an ex-Mossad agent, with no corroboration. I don't believe it is true. He has no evidence. But if it were true, let's think about this...do you think Iraqi Jews left Iraq because..

a) A series of bombs went off that killed 3 - 4 people in 1950 and 1951

or

b) Because they were subjected to one of the worst antisemitic campaigns in modern history over more than a decade including:

  • Being stripped of jobs
  • Being arrested en masse
  • Being tried under martial law for “Zionist ties.”
  • Being tortured
  • Being fined and imprisoned on flimsy charges .
  • that the Bagdad radio literally played Mein Kampf in Arabic every night!
  • that an Iraqi Hitler youth had formed where they threw stones at Jews and shouted hatred at them in the street
  • Jews were executed in public on bogus charges
  • That they were subjected (with no state redress) to one of the worst pogrums in history where over 180 were murdered in their houses, more than 500 Jewish businesses were attacked and some of the most brutal acts in history occurred, including cutting off of women's breasts and parading them through the street

So what do you think? they left because of some bombs that we don't know who set them off? Or they left because of an ongoing state-sponsored, systematic ethnic cleansing under nationalist and extremist influence?

Every serious historian agrees that Jews were fleeing Iraq due to state-sponsored antisemitism, arrests, property seizures, and existential fear. Just this one idiot has come up with an alternative way to blame the Jews for their own ethnic cleansing.

To say Zionists caused the Jewish exodus from Iraq is not only historically false, it’s morally obscene - it absolves Arab regimes of ethnic cleansing and blames Jews for their own dispossession. There is no conclusive evidence that Mossad planted bombs to scare Iraqi Jews into fleeing and even if there were then that would not be why they left.

These authors all present one beautiful prize: A way to say "here's some Jews that are willing to provide stories or ideas which confirm our own antisemitic prejudices". So people love it. They will take any old Quack!

If a series of Black people were to write books on how Black people brought slavery on themselves, or other such ridiculous nonsense, I am sure a bunch of neo Nazis would think they were the wisest and most learned Black people who ever lived!

Their ideas simply do not hold up to scrutiny.

Twiglets1 · 09/07/2025 19:00

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 18:54

Of course I blame Hamas.fir risking the wellbeing of Palestinians. But our nations have let this get out of hand. Through supporting, we’ve perpetrated this. We’ve all watched this. And paid for it with our taxes.

Edited

Oh I see you edited because in your first response you forgot the obligatory "of course I blame Hamas but ..."

How much do you really blame them if you prefer to blame me and people like me "our nations" ?

Twiglets1 · 09/07/2025 18:57

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 18:54

Of course I blame Hamas.fir risking the wellbeing of Palestinians. But our nations have let this get out of hand. Through supporting, we’ve perpetrated this. We’ve all watched this. And paid for it with our taxes.

Edited

I don't consider myself responsible for things I've watched.

I'm aware of the war but didn't cause it. I don't even fight over parking spaces in Waitrose in case of retaliations, let alone start a fight on that scale knowing full well it would lead to a huge number of civilian deaths Israeli and Palestinian.

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 18:54

Twiglets1 · 09/07/2025 18:52

I consider Hamas way, way more responsible for this war than myself - like a million billion times more responsible so no, I don't accept that I am responsible for the death of this poor baby born in Hell.

Do you blame Hamas at all or just "our nations"?

Of course I blame Hamas.fir risking the wellbeing of Palestinians. But our nations have let this get out of hand. Through supporting, we’ve perpetrated this. We’ve all watched this. And paid for it with our taxes.

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 18:52

Madcatdudette · 09/07/2025 18:41

How about uniting and saying ‘free Gaza from Hamas’?

There have been demonstrations IN GAZA for exactly this. Before Biden went they were “90% detailed or killed” apparently. Yet here we’re are a year later still killing infants. Who is Hamas now? Where is the list of people who are Hamas? Is it exhaustive? Is it the military arm? The political?

As Hamas were the actual government- is that anyone employed by the government? All the healthcare workers? The teachers and street cleaners?

Who are the current targets for committing terrorism? Netenyahu and the far right have decided this is all of Gaza.

Twiglets1 · 09/07/2025 18:52

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 18:39

While we’re arguing the lit, an 8 month old called Saeed was pulled out the rubble with no head today. His body looked so skinny.
God love him.

What have our Nations become? We are all responsible for the murder of these children, watching and enabling the Israeli far right to run riot. It’s shooting fish in a soon to be even smaller barrel.

There are ways to do less harm, yet our countries enable this violence.

Israel will never be a Zion for its people having done this. It’s sickening.

I consider Hamas way, way more responsible for this war than myself - like a million billion times more responsible so no, I don't accept that I am responsible for the death of this poor baby born in Hell.

Do you blame Hamas at all or just "our nations"?

veiledsentiments · 09/07/2025 18:49

I have given clear reasons why I feel that way, this is what critical thinking is. You can try it now.

Because only you can do critical thinking? I also lived in the middle east for 45 years. I have an Arab husband. I am more than capable of reading up on the situation and forming my own opinions.

MixedMetals · 09/07/2025 18:42

Michael Sfard, one of Israel’s leading human rights lawyers on why Katzs plan is a crime against humanity and not helping Palestinians out.

“(Katz) laid out an operational plan for a crime against humanity. It is nothing less than that,” Sfard said. “It is all about population transfer to the southern tip of the Gaza Strip in preparation for deportation outside the strip.

“While the government still calls the deportation ‘voluntary’, people in Gaza are under so many coercive measures that no departure from the strip can be seen in legal terms as consensual.

“When you drive someone out of their homeland that would be a war crime, in the context of a war. If it’s done on a massive scale like he plans, it becomes a crime against humanity,” Sfard added.

Prof Amos Goldberg, historian of the Holocaust at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem on ethnic cleansing and why this isn't a plan to keep Palestinians safe.

The defence minister laid out clear plans for the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, Goldberg said, and the creation of “a concentration camp or a transit camp for Palestinians before they expel them. It is neither humanitarian nor a city,” he said of Katz’s planned holding area for Palestinians.
“A city is a place where you have possibilities of work, of earning money, of making connections and freedom of movement.There are hospitals, schools, universities and offices. This is not what they have in mind. It will not be a livable place, just as the ‘safe areas’ are unliveable now.”

www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/07/israeli-minister-reveals-plan-to-force-population-of-gaza-into-camp-on-ruins-of-rafah

OP posts:
thethingthatshouldnotbee · 09/07/2025 18:42

veiledsentiments · 09/07/2025 18:35

Ilan Pappé, an Israeli born historian, who, due to his research, was hounded out of Israel and now lives in the UK, even though no one could refute his research.

Norman Finkelstein is a US Jewish professor, who doesn’t appear to have a racist bone in his body, but appears to have studied and realised how awfully the Israeli governments have treated the Palestinians over the years.

Noam Chomsky, a socialist in his youth maybe, but tried on many occasions to reconcile himself with Israel, but eventually came to the conclusion that he could not get along with Zionism.

Avi Shlaim, an Iraqi Jew, well to do, who had to flee Iraq because of perceived persecution from bombs planted in the Jewish areas in Baghdad, only later in life after doing research to find out the bombs were planted by Mossad agents.
He names them in his book 3 Worlds, Memoirs of an Arab Jew.

As I said, two sides to every story. Things can be interpreted differently.

Norman Finklestein said that October 7th warmed his soul. Was a lovely guy.

Madcatdudette · 09/07/2025 18:41

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 18:39

While we’re arguing the lit, an 8 month old called Saeed was pulled out the rubble with no head today. His body looked so skinny.
God love him.

What have our Nations become? We are all responsible for the murder of these children, watching and enabling the Israeli far right to run riot. It’s shooting fish in a soon to be even smaller barrel.

There are ways to do less harm, yet our countries enable this violence.

Israel will never be a Zion for its people having done this. It’s sickening.

How about uniting and saying ‘free Gaza from Hamas’?

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 18:39

While we’re arguing the lit, an 8 month old called Saeed was pulled out the rubble with no head today. His body looked so skinny.
God love him.

What have our Nations become? We are all responsible for the murder of these children, watching and enabling the Israeli far right to run riot. It’s shooting fish in a soon to be even smaller barrel.

There are ways to do less harm, yet our countries enable this violence.

Israel will never be a Zion for its people having done this. It’s sickening.

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 18:39

veiledsentiments · 09/07/2025 18:17

But that’s just your personal take on it. I will have a look at your recommendations. However, it doesn’t necessarily mean I’m going to agree with how you have dissed the other authors. Surely a measured view of both sides might be a better way to understand the problems.

Sorry I just understood the second part of what you suggested.

It is wise to read all information that you can, especially on complex issues. If you find the information contained to be dishonest, ridiculous, racist, revisionist or even outright completely preposterous, then I think it's fine to say so.

I have given clear reasons why I feel that way, this is what critical thinking is. You can try it now.

75000 Jews left Egypt. In Egypt, this is what happened after 1948:

  • Jews were accused of being zionist collaborators whether they were
  • They were fired from their jobs for being Jewish
  • Nuremberg style laws were implemented stripping them of rights
  • There were mass arbitrary arrests
  • Their property was confiscated
  • Their* *businesses were shut down
  • Their bank accounts frozen.
  • There were ani-Jewish riots
  • Some were arbitrarily stripped of citizenship
  • Some were expelled after being given
  • Jews were placed under arbitrary police surveillance
  • Kids threw rocks at them in the street
  • They were tortured
  • Some were executed and some died in jail

I am not talking about some Jews, I am talking about all of them - doctors, accountants, shop owners, all of them.

Things got worse after the Suez Crisis, and the Jews that remained were given days to leave and were forced to sign their property over to the government and pack one suitcase. Synagogues were smashed up, Jewish school shut down. My mother clearly remembers their close family friend going through this. She showed me photos.

Avi Shlaim has argued that Zionist deliberately provoked, the Jewish exodus from Arab countries, shifting blame onto "Zionist agents".

I find that to be utterly ridiculous.

"Zionist agents" didn't force Iraq, Egypt, Libya, and others to enact explicitly antisemitic laws, expel Jews, seize their assets or otherwise ethnically cleanse them - we chose to do it. We chose to do it and we were wrong.

So no, I am not sure what you think a measured view would be. I think the man is a complete idiot with some sort of weird axe to grind. I wouldn't read a shopping list if he wrote it.