Israels plan for Gazas future

I actually voted for Jeremy Corbyn, despite having very different ideas on foreign policy I liked his other ideas and while I had empathy for the some of the example of antisemitism I saw, I really believed this to be fringe lunacy confined (where it belongs) to unwashed trade union reps and had-been 50 something communists.

Then the mobs started going past my house calling for intifadas and other various bollocks and engaging in some of the most obvious, most classic antisemitism that I never thought I would see in 21st century Britain and I realised he wasn't misjudged at all.

In hindsight, if he were prime minister it would have been catastrophic. He and his movement are like idealistic 6th formers, who have romanticised terrorist groups and Islamic extremists and simply don't understand the danger they pose to innocent lives and the freedoms of others.

He is anti west.

Which is all well and good when you are 15 and trying to be edgy, but as a grown adult it's quite dangerous.

Intifadas aren't glamorous, terrorists aren't freedom fighters, Osama Bin Laden wasn't a misunderstood genius. These people are religious extremists who have in different ways inflicted horrors on women, homosexuals, minorities, and even just those who don't agree with them for decades.

When I look at the mobs behaving like this, or even listen to the silly people here saying the things they say, I don't mean it in a cruel way but honestly the best thing for them would be to go and live for a year in Iran, Syria, Pakistan, Egypt, Gaza and then come back and speak again.

They're so lucky to be living in the west, so lucky to be free and to be able to be free to vote for whoever they want. They're so lucky they have human rights and civil rights and rules which protect them from tyranny and they are blithely unaware and they have a bit of growing up to do.

It shouldn’t happen absolutely because Hamas should have surrendered and civilians should have been given refuge in surrounding safe countries as in EVERY OTHER WAR.

That is what everyone should be speaking up about.

If it’s a tragedy and you know it shouldn’t happen. Speak up.

Thanks, dairydebris. I do love Mumsnet a bit too much especially when I’ve got more pressing things to do but it’s respectful and informed posters like you that make it worth the effort.
I’ve been busy pushing back against the RaynOr Win pile-on elsewhere not quite sure why, but I don’t like witch hunts, particularly when there are no witches.
And even if there were what’s wrong with them? Witches, that is!

@sualipa I definitely dont often agree with you but I love reading your posts and you often make me laugh, please do keep posting, thankyou.
( I miss the laugh emoji )

Magic Grandpa – the incorruptible hero of Glastonbury who transformed the Labour Party into the largest grassroots political movement in Europe, only to be brought down by smears, lies, and a coordinated campaign by the establishment at home and abroad to silence and discredit him. He lives on in our hearts and minds.

Magic Grandpa – the incorruptible hero of Glastonbury who transformed the Labour Party into the largest grassroots political movement in Europe, only to be brought down by smears, lies, and a coordinated campaign by the establishment at home and abroad to silence and discredit him. He lives on in our hearts and minds.

Magic Grandpa – the incorruptible hero of Glastonbury who transformed the Labour Party into the largest grassroots political movement in Europe, only to be brought down by smears, lies, and a coordinated campaign by the establishment at home and abroad to silence and discredit him. He lives on in our hearts and minds.

Talking of welcoming - who's the guy on the right? I could have sworn the hard left ex Labour leader, has some empathy for certain proscribed terrorist groups.

It is absolutely horrific if that is what occurred.

I think we all agree it is horrific.

Where we disagree is here:

Group A
Think Israel is to blame and they should just stop fighting the war.

Group B
Thinks Hamas is to blame and that they should return the hostages and surrender.

I'd imagine those with the best intentions in group A just want the killing to stop, particularly of children, and the worst are people who side with Hamas and they're less bothered about killing and more bothered about their side not winning.

You can spot those ones because they never call for Hamas to return the hostages and they defend October 7. And they get very, very angry at those who do call for the return of the hostages. They walk past my house in mobs every weekend and are videotaped frequently ripping down hostage posters.

Quite often they like to pose as virtuous. It's revolting.

As a member of group B I can tell you I would love the war to end tomorrow.

The right thing to do would be for Hamas to give back the hostages and surrender but they won't because saving the lives of their own people, even their own children, isn't important to them.

Beyond that, some of us worry that if Israel is not able to disarm Hamas and end their rule and military capability, that they will fulfill their promise to repeat it again and again, and we will end up right back here in 5 years or 10 years and all these lives would have been lost and destroyed only for the cycle to continue.

Gotta love Bernie the best President America never had instead we have this lying piece of corrupt shit - I would have voted for him in a heartbeat except for the fact I'm a Brit. .

How did they manage to overlook that? 🤔

Using countries that have blatantly persecuted Jews as an example of why there was no need or justification for a (tiny) Jewish state in the ancestral homeland.

Gobsmacked.

"Why is it that every attempt to address this basic, foundational root cause event gets deflected by whataboutery. "But if only the Arab League hadn't declared war when Israel was formed". "But if only the Palestinians didn't react to Israel's formation with violent resistance"."

I can only speak for myself when I say its not whataboutery, I think the declaration of war is the actual root of the problem. Palestinians were also allocated land, less than they wished to accept, but nonetheless acceptance was an option. Instead of that they chose violence and have chosen violence consistently since. They didn't just want more land, they wanted ALL the land, and for Jews to have none. Thats the root of the problem for me.

"How about "if only the Palestinians were accorded the same right to self determination as anyone else, including all the other ex-Ottoman mandates, and not had most of their land appropriated for settlement by foreigners in the first place?""

They were. They were offered land to make a state. They declined to do this and set about trying to drive every last Jew into the sea instead. They could have declared a state and set about making Palestine a successful nation. They didn't. You can't deny they had the opportunity though.

"You're looking for ways that the founding of Israel could have been achieved in a more peaceful manner, and laying the burden for that on everybody else, while ignoring that that very event itself is absolutely unjustifiable according to any of the assumptions about national self determination that we take for granted everywhere else in the world, and only justifiable according to a profoundly racist wordview..."

Are you saying here that the creation of the state of Israel was an unjustifiable event? It sounds like you are. I totally disagree and am shocked you'd say that. Perhaps I misunderstood?
I don't buy that the creation of Israel was profoundly racist either. It was the UNs attempt to give both peoples a state of their own. Anything other than that would have been the racist thing to do. What should the UN have done instead?

If it’s a tragedy and you know it shouldn’t happen. Speak up.

This is a of course a tragedy.

Where are you getting this information as it happens?

The only report I can find is of ‘8 women and children’ killed in a strike on a Hamas operative who took part in Oct 7th.

You could ask why are Hamas operatives in the vicinity of children when they certainly know the IDF is tracking them and targeting them?

Absolutely despicable.

Someone was seemingly making the point that Jews could have just stayed where they were as a minority and been fine without self determination. That just isn't the case. Almost every minority community in the countries Jews were living have been horrifically persecuted.

This is a of course a tragedy.

Where are you getting this information as it happens?

The only report I can find is of ‘8 women and children’ killed in a strike on a Hamas operative who took part in Oct 7th.

You could ask why are Hamas operatives in the vicinity of children when they certainly know the IDF is tracking them and targeting them?

Absolutely despicable.

I must be missing something here because it appears you are using Syria and Lebanon as examples of what could have worked well for Jewish people.

I can only speak for myself when I say its not whataboutery, I think the declaration of war is the actual root of the problem. Palestinians were also allocated land, less than they wished to accept, but nonetheless acceptance was an option. Instead of that they chose violence and have chosen violence consistently since. They didn't just want more land, they wanted ALL the land, and for Jews to have none. Thats the root of the problem for me.

Some of the Palestinians were jews, and as far as I'm aware they were happy for all members of their society - muslim, jewish or Christian - to have land within it the same way they always had. Again you're starting from the premise of partition as inevitable and normal, and then judging people's reactions to it. But it wasn't either inevitable or normal.

"How about "if only the Palestinians were accorded the same right to self determination as anyone else, including all the other ex-Ottoman mandates, and not had most of their land appropriated for settlement by foreigners in the first place?""
They were. They were offered land to make a state.

The other ex-Ottoman territories weren't "offered" land. They were recognised as the longstanding inhabitants and thus the rightful eventual rulers of such land, and this was written into the mandate agreements. Indeed that's why they were set up as mandates rather than simply given to Britain and France as colonies. So were the Palestinians, except that in that case the Zionist lobby had Britain's ear and the rest is history.

Are you saying here that the creation of the state of Israel was an unjustifiable event? It sounds like you are. I totally disagree and am shocked you'd say that. Perhaps I misunderstood?

It may have been perfectly justifiable (and beyond that, actively praiseworthy) if it had taken place on an uninhabited island ("a land without a people for a people without a land", like the Zionists claimed Palestine was - the Palestinians of course not counting as "people").

I don't buy that the creation of Israel was profoundly racist either. It was the UNs attempt to give both peoples a state of their own. Anything other than that would have been the racist thing to do. What should the UN have done instead?

What would have been racist about simply setting up in Palestine the institutions of a government to represent all its citizens, all of whom retained the right of free access to the whole country, as they had had under the Ottomans? Just as happened in Lebanon, Syria etc?

At least 8 small children bombed in the street with their parents today in Gaza.

There isn’t enough room on the cart to hold them. So they are piled, while another small child runs after it begging for his brother.

If you are not opposing this, your silence supports it.

This is an extremely hard but illuminating read.

All of your arguments make perfect sense if you come from the position that Jewish people had / have no right to a homeland in the place they've continually inhabited for 1000's of years, where all their genetic roots stem from, all their history is based. The site of their greatest temple is underneath the Dome of the Rock fgs. If you think that all the land was the Arabs land, and the Jews should have been shipped off to an uninhabited island then yes I can see where youre coming from.

But in that case, youre advocating for back in 1948 the ethnic cleansing of the region of Jews, who most people agree while not in a majority were indeed indigenous to the end. And all this in the wake of the most well documented and atrocious actual genocide in history. It's a pretty shocking position and its jarring to read it put so eloquently.

I can only speak for myself when I say its not whataboutery, I think the declaration of war is the actual root of the problem. Palestinians were also allocated land, less than they wished to accept, but nonetheless acceptance was an option. Instead of that they chose violence and have chosen violence consistently since. They didn't just want more land, they wanted ALL the land, and for Jews to have none. Thats the root of the problem for me.

Some of the Palestinians were jews, and as far as I'm aware they were happy for all members of their society - muslim, jewish or Christian - to have land within it the same way they always had. Again you're starting from the premise of partition as inevitable and normal, and then judging people's reactions to it. But it wasn't either inevitable or normal.

"How about "if only the Palestinians were accorded the same right to self determination as anyone else, including all the other ex-Ottoman mandates, and not had most of their land appropriated for settlement by foreigners in the first place?""
They were. They were offered land to make a state.

The other ex-Ottoman territories weren't "offered" land. They were recognised as the longstanding inhabitants and thus the rightful eventual rulers of such land, and this was written into the mandate agreements. Indeed that's why they were set up as mandates rather than simply given to Britain and France as colonies. So were the Palestinians, except that in that case the Zionist lobby had Britain's ear and the rest is history.

Are you saying here that the creation of the state of Israel was an unjustifiable event? It sounds like you are. I totally disagree and am shocked you'd say that. Perhaps I misunderstood?

It may have been perfectly justifiable (and beyond that, actively praiseworthy) if it had taken place on an uninhabited island ("a land without a people for a people without a land", like the Zionists claimed Palestine was - the Palestinians of course not counting as "people").

I don't buy that the creation of Israel was profoundly racist either. It was the UNs attempt to give both peoples a state of their own. Anything other than that would have been the racist thing to do. What should the UN have done instead?

What would have been racist about simply setting up in Palestine the institutions of a government to represent all its citizens, all of whom retained the right of free access to the whole country, as they had had under the Ottomans? Just as happened in Lebanon, Syria etc?