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Conflict in the Middle East

Hamas nearly gone?

159 replies

mids2019 · 06/07/2025 18:10

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gk79xlzwjo

This is important. Hamas are nearly defeated and so is it in Israel's interests to finish the job? It will be interesting to see if Hamas actually have authority when it comes to negotiations or whether they are a busted flush outrageously demanding concessions when they are defeated.

It seems Palestinian society is descending into a barbaric chaos and I don't how these armed gangs will be represented in future Gazan governance unless it is broken up into clan fiefdoms?

Displaced Palestinian children play inside a destroyed police car in a temporary camp within the site of the Arafat Police Academy, in the destroyed police camp affiliated with Hamas, in Gaza City (10 April 2025)

Hamas security officer says group has lost control over most of Gaza /OR/ Hamas security officer says clans filling void as group loses control of Gaza

The officer says Israeli strikes have devastated the group's leadership and structure, and that armed clans are filling the void.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gk79xlzwjo

OP posts:
sualipa · 07/07/2025 08:27

mids2019 · 07/07/2025 04:23

1Dayatatime

I think I can answer why so may pro Palestinians do not reference ww2. A large portion of people supporting Palestininians probably believe that ww2 was a conflict between ex colonial powers and therefore is of little relevance in their father strange world view. There are probably very few who participate in pro Palestinian marches who wear poppies for instance.

I think this calls for more education about ww2 including the Holocaust and ensuring it remains a relevant high profile part of the school curriculum. By learning about the Holocaust and the civilian death tolls in Europe , Russia and Japan (not exclusively ) the youth of today can put this war in the middle East into context.

I think also those so keen to use the genocide narrative will reflect that 46000 civil and died during the blitz which was indiscriminate bombing of London with the sole intent of terrorising citizens. The pro Palestinian mob would benefit reading about British history as well as watching tik tok.

In my case, that's simply not true. My grandfather who I never knew fought in WWI and was gassed on the Somme. He was a carpenter who struggled to work after the war, and my mother (long since gone) vividly remembered the National Assistance Board coming round to the house, looking in every cupboard to find things to sell before the family would receive any meagre help.

He never joined the British Legion, never attended Armistice Day celebrations, and never once spoke about the war.

My father God rest his soul worked at Woolwich Arsenal as a teenager in the late 1930s. He tried to join up in 1939, but his eyesight let him down. He eventually got the service he sought in 1940. He joined the Royal Signals and served in South Africa, Libya, Egypt, Italy, and ultimately ended up in a ruined Germany.

He had hundreds of books in the house and taught me virtually everything I know. We sat down together as a family to watch The World at War, and he was a fountain of information. He firmly believed in a Jewish homeland and held a contempt surpassing every bone in his mild body for the evil they wrought. He reserved a burning hatred for Hitler, and often said he hoped there was a hell so Hitler could burn there for eternity.

That said, he was a socialist who, like most of his compatriots, voted for the Labour government of 1945 over Churchill’s Tories. He fully supported the birth of Israel. He also believed the Arabs had been badly treated, and he met quite a few while on active service during the war some were employed as support staff.

He left me with an inquisitive mind, a love for history, and a desire to seek the truth.

Israel is a relatively new country, born in a more progressive, post-colonial Western world. Its birth pains are more raw and visible than those of more settled nations. But it was never simply “a land for a people without a land” around 700,000 people were already living there, and they had no desire to leave. In that original injustice, and in the settlements that followed, lie the roots of today’s conflict.

Something has to give but it won’t come from the leaders of Hamas or Netanyahu and his extremist supporters. They are not the solution; they are the problem.

Palestinians know their rich and varied history they are not the simplistic cyphers of terrorism and evil that some would like to portray. For anyone seeking a concise and powerful account of the Arab Revolt - which surprised me when I read it recently , I recommend the work of Ghassan Kanafani, the great Palestinian writer assassinated by the Israelis in 1972. His account was meant to be the first chapter of a full history of the Palestinian struggle tragically unfinished at his death. His famous interview with an Australian TV company is celebrated to this day - he was a leader of the PFLP a marxist organsiation that used early terrorist methods to try and advance their aims.

But we have to get to the point where killing is never justified by everybody or in the end the logic that might is right lies at the end of that bloody road. But he powerfully makes the point well over 50 years ago as to why they fight.

The victors often get to write history, but some voices deserve never to be forgotten. Palestinians are not what some would wish them to be they are a people with memory, culture, resistance, and a rightful claim to dignity.

https://newleftreview.org/issues/ii147/articles/the-neck-and-the-sword

Rashid Khalidi, The Neck and The Sword, NLR 147, May–June 2024

Rashid Khalidi and Tariq Ali discuss the political and intellectual history of the Palestinian national movement, its fraught entanglement with neighbouring Arab regimes, the realities of the ‘peace process’, Israel’s grip on the Biden Administration a...

https://newleftreview.org/issues/ii147/articles/the-neck-and-the-sword

SharonEllis · 07/07/2025 08:22

User37482 · 07/07/2025 06:39

I listen to a podcast where one of the presenters is Arab. There was an interesting conversation about how in Arab culture theres this idea of letting things play out till the end in a conflict so you have a victor. It’s not the same as the western view of negotiation and settlements. It’s a culturally distinct view that non arabs may find a bit uncomfortable.

The reality is this may very much be the view of Gazans when it comes to an internal conflict. The clans have been fighting Hamas for a little while now, they near destroyed a hospital in Khan Younis when they went looking for Hamas (funny how they knew they would be under a hospital).

I think the antipathy towards Hamas is clear, Hamas is executing and torturing Gazans left right and centre. I think there will be some sort of settlement between the clans at some point after this and some acknowledgement finally that whatever Hamas has been doing it hasn’t worked in the interests of Gazans at all. Israel clearing up more Hamas is only going to help Gazans get out from under them.

It’ll be interesting to see what Gazans think of all this when the dust settles and they can speak freely because the war will end at some point. I imagine they will have some choice words for both Hamas and the Israelis which I don’t think you can blame civilians for. There have been anti Hamas protests in the strip before that have been put down quite brutally, I’m not sure if the “Hamas is the resistance” people know that (I suspect they don’t because they often don’t know extremely basic facts).

This whole thing is an unfortunate consequence of war, Hamas’s don’t want this war to end because it spells their end. If they wanted a conclusion they could hand back the remaining hostages in exchange for free passage out of Gaza (this has been done before with the PLO) not sure who would take them, personally I think it should be Iran and Qatar. The Saudis are offering Israel normalisation contingent on the removal of Hamas from the strip and a peace process. So it’s not just that the Israelis themselves want to decimate Hamas (which they rightly wish to do) the Abraham accord may hinge on this as well.

Great post, do you remember what the podcast was? Would like to listen.

Dangermoo · 07/07/2025 08:13

sualipa · 06/07/2025 21:25

People talk about “wiping out” Hamas as if that would solve everything. But history shows us that when a people are oppressed, something always rises in resistance. After the Great Famine in Ireland when over a million died and many more were forced to emigration groups like the Fenian Brotherhood emerged. They weren’t born in a vacuum. They were born of starvation, grief, humiliation, and injustice under British rule.

It’s not so different in Palestine. Since the Nakba in 1948, millions of Palestinians have lived as refugees, or under military occupation, or trapped behind blockades. Generations have grown up stateless, with no rights and no hope. Of course people resist. Sometimes violently, sometimes peacefully but always from a place of deep pain.

Unless Israel truly reckons with the original injustice of the Nakba the mass displacement of Palestinians it will never understand why so many feel they have nothing left to lose. Lip service to peace won’t fix it. You can’t bomb away the anger and grief of entire generations. That only makes it worse.

This isn’t about justifying violence. It’s about recognising that crushing people into poverty and despair doesn’t make them compliant it makes them desperate. Just like in Ireland, you can’t eliminate the resistance without addressing what gave rise to it.

Until there’s justice and dignity for Palestinians, the rubble of Gaza will keep producing something new and probably something more desperate.

As Israeli journalist Gideon Levy wrote:

“Israelis believe, with terrifying sincerity, that if they only bomb Gaza harder, if they only kill a few more Hamas commanders, if they only show even less mercy then maybe finally the Palestinians will give up. But the opposite is true. You can kill the people, but you can’t kill the idea. You can flatten Gaza, but you can’t destroy the rage. When you trap people for generations and deny them basic human rights, don’t ask why they fight back. Ask what kind of peace you expected from people you’ve kept caged for decades.”

It's almost like there aren't two sides of the 'story'.

Dangermoo · 07/07/2025 08:11

User37482 · 07/07/2025 06:39

I listen to a podcast where one of the presenters is Arab. There was an interesting conversation about how in Arab culture theres this idea of letting things play out till the end in a conflict so you have a victor. It’s not the same as the western view of negotiation and settlements. It’s a culturally distinct view that non arabs may find a bit uncomfortable.

The reality is this may very much be the view of Gazans when it comes to an internal conflict. The clans have been fighting Hamas for a little while now, they near destroyed a hospital in Khan Younis when they went looking for Hamas (funny how they knew they would be under a hospital).

I think the antipathy towards Hamas is clear, Hamas is executing and torturing Gazans left right and centre. I think there will be some sort of settlement between the clans at some point after this and some acknowledgement finally that whatever Hamas has been doing it hasn’t worked in the interests of Gazans at all. Israel clearing up more Hamas is only going to help Gazans get out from under them.

It’ll be interesting to see what Gazans think of all this when the dust settles and they can speak freely because the war will end at some point. I imagine they will have some choice words for both Hamas and the Israelis which I don’t think you can blame civilians for. There have been anti Hamas protests in the strip before that have been put down quite brutally, I’m not sure if the “Hamas is the resistance” people know that (I suspect they don’t because they often don’t know extremely basic facts).

This whole thing is an unfortunate consequence of war, Hamas’s don’t want this war to end because it spells their end. If they wanted a conclusion they could hand back the remaining hostages in exchange for free passage out of Gaza (this has been done before with the PLO) not sure who would take them, personally I think it should be Iran and Qatar. The Saudis are offering Israel normalisation contingent on the removal of Hamas from the strip and a peace process. So it’s not just that the Israelis themselves want to decimate Hamas (which they rightly wish to do) the Abraham accord may hinge on this as well.

This is a fantastic (factual) post; unfortunately, the liberals don't want to believe it. They are too emotionally invested.

SharonEllis · 07/07/2025 06:58

TakeMe2Insanity · 06/07/2025 22:01

Well Israel has nearly taken out most of the civilian population so yeah why not finish job. While they are at it they take out the rest of kids, or maybe make sure they need prosthetics. Ridiculous.

No they haven't unless you are saying the vast majority of people in Gaza are Hamas operatives and the 6% or so of the population that have been killed were all civilians and only around 6% of the population could count as civilian. Which of course we know not to be true as we know that most of the Hamas high command have been killed along with lesser operatives.

millimouse · 07/07/2025 06:54

sualipa · 06/07/2025 21:25

People talk about “wiping out” Hamas as if that would solve everything. But history shows us that when a people are oppressed, something always rises in resistance. After the Great Famine in Ireland when over a million died and many more were forced to emigration groups like the Fenian Brotherhood emerged. They weren’t born in a vacuum. They were born of starvation, grief, humiliation, and injustice under British rule.

It’s not so different in Palestine. Since the Nakba in 1948, millions of Palestinians have lived as refugees, or under military occupation, or trapped behind blockades. Generations have grown up stateless, with no rights and no hope. Of course people resist. Sometimes violently, sometimes peacefully but always from a place of deep pain.

Unless Israel truly reckons with the original injustice of the Nakba the mass displacement of Palestinians it will never understand why so many feel they have nothing left to lose. Lip service to peace won’t fix it. You can’t bomb away the anger and grief of entire generations. That only makes it worse.

This isn’t about justifying violence. It’s about recognising that crushing people into poverty and despair doesn’t make them compliant it makes them desperate. Just like in Ireland, you can’t eliminate the resistance without addressing what gave rise to it.

Until there’s justice and dignity for Palestinians, the rubble of Gaza will keep producing something new and probably something more desperate.

As Israeli journalist Gideon Levy wrote:

“Israelis believe, with terrifying sincerity, that if they only bomb Gaza harder, if they only kill a few more Hamas commanders, if they only show even less mercy then maybe finally the Palestinians will give up. But the opposite is true. You can kill the people, but you can’t kill the idea. You can flatten Gaza, but you can’t destroy the rage. When you trap people for generations and deny them basic human rights, don’t ask why they fight back. Ask what kind of peace you expected from people you’ve kept caged for decades.”

Thank you for this post.

JustGoClickLikeALightSwitch · 07/07/2025 06:47

As a Jew who doesn’t agree with some PP - for example, history didn’t start in 1948 or even 1848 - you can’t bomb your way to peace imo. There is/will be a generation of angry young Gazans who have seen death and destruction. Will Iran, still hellbent on Israeli destruction, fund Hamas 2.0, or worse? Do they have the capacity to? Where is Israel going politically once Bibi finally fucks off? How will US/Israeli and Israeli/international relations shift post-war?

I don’t see much good in the near future sadly, for either Gazan people or Jews in Israel.

User37482 · 07/07/2025 06:43

TakeMe2Insanity · 06/07/2025 22:01

Well Israel has nearly taken out most of the civilian population so yeah why not finish job. While they are at it they take out the rest of kids, or maybe make sure they need prosthetics. Ridiculous.

This is the kind of ignorance that really doesn’t help. You are factually wrong yet you repeat it, either because you believe things which are not true, you never checked but it sounds “truthy” or you know it’s not true but you want to amplify falsehoods to support a particular narrative.

User37482 · 07/07/2025 06:40

REDB99 · 06/07/2025 19:48

I cannot stand Hamas and would like them gone completely, they have horribly abused the people of Gaza. Israel’s objective is to obliterate them but at the cost of thousands of civilians lives. Hamas make money (amongst other ways) by stealing aid trucks and selling the food at inflated prices to civilians. They have used Gazan’s as human shields for far too long.
But what replaces them? Something that will no doubt inflict more misery on the people who live there.

Maybe they replace it with themselves? Many arab societies organised around clan and tribe are ok. The gulf countries function like this and are stable. The democratic ones struggle more due to sectarianism and clan loyalty.

User37482 · 07/07/2025 06:39

I listen to a podcast where one of the presenters is Arab. There was an interesting conversation about how in Arab culture theres this idea of letting things play out till the end in a conflict so you have a victor. It’s not the same as the western view of negotiation and settlements. It’s a culturally distinct view that non arabs may find a bit uncomfortable.

The reality is this may very much be the view of Gazans when it comes to an internal conflict. The clans have been fighting Hamas for a little while now, they near destroyed a hospital in Khan Younis when they went looking for Hamas (funny how they knew they would be under a hospital).

I think the antipathy towards Hamas is clear, Hamas is executing and torturing Gazans left right and centre. I think there will be some sort of settlement between the clans at some point after this and some acknowledgement finally that whatever Hamas has been doing it hasn’t worked in the interests of Gazans at all. Israel clearing up more Hamas is only going to help Gazans get out from under them.

It’ll be interesting to see what Gazans think of all this when the dust settles and they can speak freely because the war will end at some point. I imagine they will have some choice words for both Hamas and the Israelis which I don’t think you can blame civilians for. There have been anti Hamas protests in the strip before that have been put down quite brutally, I’m not sure if the “Hamas is the resistance” people know that (I suspect they don’t because they often don’t know extremely basic facts).

This whole thing is an unfortunate consequence of war, Hamas’s don’t want this war to end because it spells their end. If they wanted a conclusion they could hand back the remaining hostages in exchange for free passage out of Gaza (this has been done before with the PLO) not sure who would take them, personally I think it should be Iran and Qatar. The Saudis are offering Israel normalisation contingent on the removal of Hamas from the strip and a peace process. So it’s not just that the Israelis themselves want to decimate Hamas (which they rightly wish to do) the Abraham accord may hinge on this as well.

mids2019 · 07/07/2025 05:37

The accusations of genocide from a legal perspective were polotcally.motivated. If Israel were at some future point found guilty of such offence then the real loser would be the integrity of international law and lawyers would be floundering trying to find an acceptable civilian death toll before triggering 'genocide'; you would also have to define how a state can defend itself which is never going to happen.

No genocide has been a term embraced by pro Palestinians to try and gain broad hatred of the Israeli government, population and by extension Jews.

I actually am concerned about any large civilian death toll but the use of the word genocide against a people who have suffered historically one of the worst ever coupled with the sheer horror of October 7th is beyond words.

OP posts:
Twiglets1 · 07/07/2025 05:33

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 07/07/2025 04:36

What a bunch of gaslighters.

What is untrue what @mids2019 or @1dayatatime or @RoastSquash say?

Memely · 07/07/2025 05:31

RoastSquash · 07/07/2025 00:26

Pre October 7th 2023, the population of Gaza was approximately 2.1 million. The current death toll is estimated at 55,000, 30,000 of whom are reported to be Hamas/PIJ etc. That's over 2 million Gazans- around 97% - who've not been 'taken out by Israel'.

When you factor in the birth rate, there are now more people in Gaza than before the 'genocide' started.

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 07/07/2025 04:36

What a bunch of gaslighters.

mids2019 · 07/07/2025 04:31

Also Germany completely failed to destabilise the British government but Israel looks like it's achieving it's aim of getting rid of the hated Hamas.

OP posts:
mids2019 · 07/07/2025 04:30

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/the-blitz-around-britain

43,500 Brita killed in 9 months during the Blitz. Do some maths and scale that up to how many would have been killed in 2.5 years and you can see the devastating impact of German military terror. We do not call this a genocide though and the British government has never sought measures to reclassify it as such. The reason-it was an aerial bombardment not the systemic extermination of a race as happened in Nazi Germany. British history is important.

OP posts:
mids2019 · 07/07/2025 04:23

1Dayatatime

I think I can answer why so may pro Palestinians do not reference ww2. A large portion of people supporting Palestininians probably believe that ww2 was a conflict between ex colonial powers and therefore is of little relevance in their father strange world view. There are probably very few who participate in pro Palestinian marches who wear poppies for instance.

I think this calls for more education about ww2 including the Holocaust and ensuring it remains a relevant high profile part of the school curriculum. By learning about the Holocaust and the civilian death tolls in Europe , Russia and Japan (not exclusively ) the youth of today can put this war in the middle East into context.

I think also those so keen to use the genocide narrative will reflect that 46000 civil and died during the blitz which was indiscriminate bombing of London with the sole intent of terrorising citizens. The pro Palestinian mob would benefit reading about British history as well as watching tik tok.

OP posts:
Ohthatsabitshit · 07/07/2025 00:50

mids2019 · 06/07/2025 22:56

Of you did have some sort of clan governance then although they would be unsavoury characters would they possibly not have the ideological mission of the destruction of Israel with religious foundation?

You would have warlords in charge and although questionable at least they would realise that trying to precipitate another October 7th would be a really bad idea. I don't know if there is the appetite for resistance amongst Gazans if you call October 7th resistance and then look at the consequences.

Why would they automatically be “unsavoury characters”? They might be wise and respected members of a community. I would imagine there are very few Palestinians who wish Israelis well. Why would there be? They have been treated horrendously.

1dayatatime · 07/07/2025 00:49

So prior to October 7th the population of Gaza was 2.1 million since then 55,000 military and civilians have been killed (Hamas figures) or 2.6%.

Prior to WW2 the population of Germany was 80 million and 5.5 million military and civilians were killed or 6.8%.

Prior to WW2 the population of Japan was 73 million and 3.1 million military and civilians were killed or 4.2%.

And lastly in Russia it was 14%.

My question is why are the deaths in Gaza called a genocide when the German, Russian and Japanese deaths are not called a genocide despite the death toll being a much higher percentage of the population prior to the conflict?

Firealarm1414 · 07/07/2025 00:41

TakeMe2Insanity · 06/07/2025 23:42

Let me guess: you believe they’ve brought this upon themselves and there is no genocide.

So i take it by this deflection that you admit then that your statement about how Israel have nearly wiped out the entire population is nonsense?

RoastSquash · 07/07/2025 00:26

TakeMe2Insanity · 06/07/2025 22:01

Well Israel has nearly taken out most of the civilian population so yeah why not finish job. While they are at it they take out the rest of kids, or maybe make sure they need prosthetics. Ridiculous.

Pre October 7th 2023, the population of Gaza was approximately 2.1 million. The current death toll is estimated at 55,000, 30,000 of whom are reported to be Hamas/PIJ etc. That's over 2 million Gazans- around 97% - who've not been 'taken out by Israel'.

Usou · 06/07/2025 23:48

TakeMe2Insanity · 06/07/2025 23:42

Let me guess: you believe they’ve brought this upon themselves and there is no genocide.

Got it in one.

Whereismyjoiedevivre · 06/07/2025 23:48

sualipa · 06/07/2025 21:25

People talk about “wiping out” Hamas as if that would solve everything. But history shows us that when a people are oppressed, something always rises in resistance. After the Great Famine in Ireland when over a million died and many more were forced to emigration groups like the Fenian Brotherhood emerged. They weren’t born in a vacuum. They were born of starvation, grief, humiliation, and injustice under British rule.

It’s not so different in Palestine. Since the Nakba in 1948, millions of Palestinians have lived as refugees, or under military occupation, or trapped behind blockades. Generations have grown up stateless, with no rights and no hope. Of course people resist. Sometimes violently, sometimes peacefully but always from a place of deep pain.

Unless Israel truly reckons with the original injustice of the Nakba the mass displacement of Palestinians it will never understand why so many feel they have nothing left to lose. Lip service to peace won’t fix it. You can’t bomb away the anger and grief of entire generations. That only makes it worse.

This isn’t about justifying violence. It’s about recognising that crushing people into poverty and despair doesn’t make them compliant it makes them desperate. Just like in Ireland, you can’t eliminate the resistance without addressing what gave rise to it.

Until there’s justice and dignity for Palestinians, the rubble of Gaza will keep producing something new and probably something more desperate.

As Israeli journalist Gideon Levy wrote:

“Israelis believe, with terrifying sincerity, that if they only bomb Gaza harder, if they only kill a few more Hamas commanders, if they only show even less mercy then maybe finally the Palestinians will give up. But the opposite is true. You can kill the people, but you can’t kill the idea. You can flatten Gaza, but you can’t destroy the rage. When you trap people for generations and deny them basic human rights, don’t ask why they fight back. Ask what kind of peace you expected from people you’ve kept caged for decades.”

Thank you for this post; you’ve articulated so well my own thoughts.

TakeMe2Insanity · 06/07/2025 23:42

Firealarm1414 · 06/07/2025 23:13

No, Israel hasn't "nearly taken out most of the civilian population". Do you really believe this?

Let me guess: you believe they’ve brought this upon themselves and there is no genocide.

Firealarm1414 · 06/07/2025 23:13

TakeMe2Insanity · 06/07/2025 22:01

Well Israel has nearly taken out most of the civilian population so yeah why not finish job. While they are at it they take out the rest of kids, or maybe make sure they need prosthetics. Ridiculous.

No, Israel hasn't "nearly taken out most of the civilian population". Do you really believe this?