Trump gives update on possible Gaza ceasefire

Of course, it is taken in the same spirit:

To focus this on the subjugation of Jews is simplistic.
The Jews are the ones who wanted independence, so the focus is on them. Were any other group in the same position, I would feel the same way.

The Ottoman Empire used a system called the millet system to manage its diverse religious communities. It allowed some autonomy to distinct religious groups, including on legal matters, education, and tax collection.
I am sorry but I really hate these kinds of statements. The rights Jews Did Not Have under the Ottoman Millet System were political equity or the right to represent themselves, equal legal standing in court, additional taxes, religious restrictions, restrictions on what they could wear, they were expected to yield and show deference to Muslims in the street, and very, very flimsy rights to property. I am ashamed of it, and I am ashamed we still deny how wrong this was.

Jewish people were able to buy land through same legal means as others.
No they weren't. Muslims were allowed to immigrate freely and buy whatever land they liked. Jewish land purchase was strictly controlled and immigration was in 1882 the Ottoman Sultan issued orders banning land sales to foreign Jews in Palestine. It's important to be clear that they were not given the same freedoms as Muslims.

I am not sure it was Palestinians subjugating local Jewish people.
Of course, it wasn't, it was the Islamic Ottoman empire.

The population of Jewish people increased during the Ottoman empire- as they welcomed Jews fleeing Europe.
The Jewish population in Palestine did increase during the Ottoman Empire, particularly in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, as Jews fleeing persecution in Europe sought refuge. The Ottomans had a long history of offering sanctuary, notably welcoming Sephardic Jews expelled from Spain in the 15th century and, later, some Ashkenazi Jews escaping pogroms in Eastern Europe. So it is true that was the case. However when they realised Jewish numbers were increasing they banned migration. Which is fair enough to be honest, but it is not the case that Jews could freely move to or live in the place they came from.

The Jews and Arabs were existing peacefully pre- Balfour
“Peaceful coexistence” ignores the deep power imbalance. Jews were dhimmis, second-class citizens under Islamic rule, and were subject to discriminatory laws, including the jizya tax, clothing restrictions, and legal inferiority. They co-existed peacefully so long as Jews accepted that. And would you?

“Can you imagine seeing bodies of young women paraded through your hometown and chasing the truck cheering? Can you imagine your village attending some ghastly funeral / celebration for two babies your government kidnapped and strangled to death? No. It really isn't normal. And no amount of oppression creates that. It's cultural.”
We are all genetically over 99 % similar. The environment is what creates the difference. Not all Gazans will have condoned the behaviour of Hamas, but why do you think some might?
I cannot picture any scenario, on any planet where people in my road - even one single person - would do that. Despite 80 years of conflict and the most terrible atrocities inflicted on Israelis, I have never seen them once take a body to Tel Aviv and have a crowd cheering as they drove it through. As I said, it is cultural. I did not say genetic. It is what comes from grooming people from birth to glorify murder.

It’s not for no reason that in international law they were considered to still be occupying Gaza.
They are considered to be occupying Gaza because they have a blockade on Gaza. If they did not have a blockade on Gaza, October 7 would have been on a much larger scale or they perhaps would even have succeeded with the annihilation they openly state they intend, so I don't judge Israel for having the blockade. I think anyone who does (including the international community) should come out and say they would like Israel to be annihilated, because that is what they really mean.

I would also blame the Palestinian politicians, but Israel has cleverly divided opportunity for joined up working between Palestinian leadership, allowing funds to reach Hamas. America also were never honest brokers for peace, creating terms that favoured Israel.
There is a lot of blame shifting here. At the end of the day if Hamas or Fatah wanted to create stable, flourishing states with human rights, peace and a nice and safe life for citizens, pretty much nobody has stopped them. The reason why they haven't done that isn't a secret, they openly explain that terrorising Israel is their job and looking after their citizens needs is a matter for the UN.

Jews have not been tied to the land for 3000 years- as above
As we cannot DNA test people for racial purity, I think a fair position is this: 2 million Arab Palestinians live in equality and safety in Israel. It is time the Palestinian leaderships offered the same to Jews.

Israeli laws favour Jews
Yes, and Palestinian laws include:

• Under Palestinian Authority law, selling land to “the enemy” (defined as Israelis or Jews) is punishable by death (Several Palestinians have been arrested, tortured, or even executed (extrajudicially or by militia) for selling land to Jews)
• they refuse recognition of Israel and deny they have any right to even be there.
• There is NO right of residency or citizenship for Jews
• Official PA school textbooks and media erase Jewish history, deny Jewish connections to Jerusalem and Hebron, and promote narratives that portray Jews as invaders or usurpers.
• Their maps omit Israel entirely.
• Jews are banned from certain places and are not allowed to pray or visit sacred sites like: Joseph’s Tomb in Nablus (unless heavily escorted). Parts of Hebron, without full IDF security. These sites have been repeatedly desecrated and are treated as solely Islamic.
• “Pay to Slay” is a real and confirmed policy of the Palestinian Authority, in which it financially rewards those who commit violent acts against Jews and Israelis.

I am sorry if you feel my interpretation of these facts is anti-palestinian, but I think that the conditions imposed on them are almost entirely political choices of their leadership.

I simply do not countenance the idea that one side should give everything and be perfect while the other side openly pays it's citizens to murder the people living next door.

And while I completely agree Palestinians have is bad, I blame their leadership almost entirely for that. I can't read minds, but I'd imagine Israelis would be really pleased if they'd just make peace and stop trying to kill them or exile them - everything I have ever seen or heard supports that.

You are of course entitled to your opinion and I would not want you to deny you the opportunity to give it freely.

I hope you take my response in equal spirit.

”I don't think it matters one iota that Muslims were a majority in 1916 - of course they bloody were. Jews in the land of Israel / Palestine had been through two significant genocides, ethically cleansed, banned from buying land, subjugated under law and generally made miserable for millennia by successive groups. That is going to result in you being a minority and it doesn't erase your right to be there or to self-determine.”

The history of the region is fascinating- from the Bronze Age onwards- potentially due to its location. The area was repeatedly conquered- eg Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Alexander the Great, Jews, Romans, Christian crusaders, and the Ottoman Empire finally ruled the area from 1500s. There was significant flux in the rulers - and to focus this on the subjugation of Jews is simplistic.

The Ottoman Empire used a system called the millet system to manage its diverse religious communities. It allowed some autonomy to distinct religious groups, including on legal matters, education, and tax collection. Jewish people were able to buy land through same legal means as others. Most of the land at the turn of the century was not owned by indigenous Muslim Arabs but by absentee landlords, and the Palestinians were tenant farmers. I am not sure it was Palestinians subjugating local Jewish people.

The population of Jewish people increased during the Ottoman empire- as they welcomed Jews fleeing Europe. The Jews and Arabs were existing peacefully pre- Balfour, and I think it’s unfair to say the animosity against Jews is cultural. You can easily find resources on the internet which provide evidence of this - prior to the rise of Zionism. It was following this that Jews were expelled from neighbouring countries.

“Can you imagine seeing bodies of young women paraded through your hometown and chasing the truck cheering? Can you imagine your village attending some ghastly funeral / celebration for two babies your government kidnapped and strangled to death? No. It really isn't normal. And no amount of oppression creates that. It's cultural.”

We are all genetically over 99 % similar. The environment is what creates the difference. Not all Gazans will have condoned the behaviour of Hamas, but why do you think some might? You seem to absolve Israel of responsibility for the conditions it has created for Palestinians. It’s not for no reason that in international law they were considered to still be occupying Gaza. I would also blame the Palestinian politicians, but Israel has cleverly divided opportunity for joined up working between Palestinian leadership, allowing funds to reach Hamas. America also were never honest brokers for peace, creating terms that favoured Israel.

“I realise Israel has played a part in it becoming as it has and some behavior by settlers has been utterly atrocious, but I am personally at a point now where I am asking myself, "why do they need to settle? Why should Jews not be able to live in the ancient lands they have been tied to for 3000 years"? So by that I mean that they should be able to live there in just the same way Arabs can live in Israel proper.”

Jews have not been tied to the land for 3000 years- as above, there has been huge flux in the populations and what the settlers are doing now is driving Arabs off their land, burning their homes and crops. You speak about Jews being able to live like Arabs in the settlements- but Israeli laws favour Jews here. Read this: https://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab

There are different ways of interpreting history - but yours seems quite anti- Palestinian without reflecting on the conditions imposed on them.

As you said:
“ Sigh”

I am going through perimenopause at the moment, and the lady on TikTok who started the "We do not care" club is currently my personal hero, so I will preface with saying that I am at a point in life where I just say what I say, it is always the truth as I see it, and without question some will not like it.

There's no question in my head that both people's have a right to live independently in the place they roughly consider to be home. That includes living as they choose, under whatever political and value system suits them and, importantly, in a way that guarantees they are not oppressed for their identity.

I don't think it matters one iota that Muslims were a majority in 1916 - of course they bloody were. Jews in the land of Israel / Palestine had been through two significant genocides, ethically cleansed, banned from buying land, subjugated under law and generally made miserable for millennia by successive groups. That is going to result in you being a minority and it doesn't erase your right to be there or to self-determine.

So given these are two very different groups with extremely different ideas on what they think life should be, not to mention very long ranging mutual animosity, there is no way to do this without a two state solution.

IMO there is potential down the road for the two to become very friendly, but that is determinant on whether or not the Palestinians are willing to deradicalize from their current position. To be specific, am I saying all Palestinians are radical Islamist terrorists?

No.

But I do think we need to look the issue square in the eye and say they have been radicalised for generations to Jew hate, to normalising murder and violence and so on and this sadly means they pose a risk to Jews at the present time.

Sorry to say that, but it is true IMO.

Can you imagine seeing bodies of young women paraded through your hometown and chasing the truck cheering? Can you imagine your village attending some ghastly funeral / celebration for two babies your government kidnapped and strangled to death? No. It really isn't normal. And no amount of oppression creates that. It's cultural.

I am not Palestinian, but I recall my sister at kindergarten being made to dress in military clothes and march and chant for death to America. The best marcher would be rewarded with trying a gun, or even going for a tank drive. This sounds mad, but it was honestly completely normal. And it has to change.

While I am absolutely certain many Palestinians are scared, oppressed themselves and good people - not a single one stepped forward on 7 Oct to stand against it. Not a single one has given up the location of a hostage. Really think about that. It says a lot.

So IMO, there is work to be done before Jews would realistically be safe around a Palestinian population, but once they are, then I hope they can become friendly. Every Arab or Muslim I have spoken to who once hated Jews, stopped hating Jews by spending time with them and realising they are completely fine people and often very similar to Arabs in many ways.

But we speak here about two sides, neither of which is keen on a two-state solution, so I will tell it as I see it.

For Palestinians, they had reasons to feel they owned the lot. They had dominated it for a long time, they had ruled over Jews as subordinates, and they had been free to live wherever they wanted and from their perspective it belongs 100% to them. This ideology is not helped by the fact that they are taught nonsense versions of history. So it was easy from day one for them to say they would never accept any Jewish state. I would add that whilst they might ask for one, IMO they have been offered more than reasonable compromises and turned them all down and that I saw a Hamas spokesperson say last year that they would use a state as a platform from which to attack and annihilate Jews. So as far as I see it, they are a really long way from genuinely wanting two separate, thriving states.

For Israelis, they came at it from a different perspective. They'd had nowhere of their own for 1500 years, and they'd tried pretty hard to live amongst others but it just wasn't working. After centuries of mad persecution and pogroms, they'd just been almost exterminated out of Europe. People will rightly point out that their position in the middle east and north africa was better, and it was, but it was also not a permanent, realistic set-up. For a start, they were not even legal citizens of any of the places they lives, even after presence there for almost 3000 years. They were denied basic rights like buying land or being in government. They were subjected to many, many pogroms and the whims of whatever leader came along and decided to exile or harass them. It was shit. And understandably they wanted independence in the place they came from.

So I think they approached it from the outset as having nothing and getting something, which whilst still less than 30% of what was originally Israel, it was a lot better than nothing.

So this is ultimately why one group started off keen to make peace and the other group started out absolutely committed to the destruction of the other.

I do think Jews, and Israel have tried in a pretty honest way to make peace with Arabs - not just in Palestine but everywhere, but there are limits to what you can do with people who are quite literally trying to exterminate you. The two groups don't play by the same rules and do not have the same goals and to be really honest with you, when Gazans parachuted into Israel and butchered, raped and kidnapped completely innocent people in such massive numbers - Israelis had just had enough.

Whether right or wrong, everyone here is only human, and 8 decades of people trying to kill you is a lot. I think they were angry. I think they remain angry, and the grotesque parading of hostages continues to pick at the wound. So it's unsurprising they are not trying to make peace plans. Would you be?

But when all of it is dealt with, Jews do not hold grudges. They don't hate Europeans who exterminated their grandparents, they don't hate the Arabs who exiled them. They just wanted to get on with living and I think if someone said tomorrow they could make a two state deal with some sacrifices ans that would give them peace, they would do it.

And because they are a democracy, what individual politicians thought would be of no consequence.

But I don't think Israel should make concessions, which is what you asked. I think they made them all, for decades and it's gotten them nowhere. I think it's time finally to hold both groups to the same standard.

No more normalising firing rockets at civilians.
No more aid money used for pay-to-slay.
No more European funded education where kids learn to kill Jewish people.
No more double standards.

It's time now really for Palestinians to begin recognising their part in this. That if they want freedom to import / export or travel into Israel they have to stop trying to kill Jews. They have to accept that if 2 million Arabs can live safely and equally and be friendly with their Jewish neighbours that maybe they should offer the same in Palestinian territories.

I realise Israel has played a part in it becoming as it has and some behavior by settlers has been utterly atrocious, but I am personally at a point now where I am asking myself, "why do they need to settle? Why should Jews not be able to live in the ancient lands they have been tied to for 3000 years"? So by that I mean that they should be able to live there in just the same way Arabs can live in Israel proper.

2 million Arabs are welcome and live safely and equally in Israel. Rather than demanding Jews leave the west bank, or Judea and Samaria, why not instead demand that 2 million of them are allowed to do the same? Isn't that more what justice looks like?

Fairness aside, Gaza, and indeed Afghanistan, Yemen and other places are shining examples of the fact that ethnically cleansing places isn't a good idea. It stops people mixing and learning from one another and I guarantee you when you strip the meaningless nonsense politics out of the situation, Jews and Muslims have a LOT in common. Particularly Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews. And they really should be living together as cousins, friends, and equals.

They need to learn this.

Not to have the message reenforced that justice = ethnically cleansing Jews from Jewish ancestral land.

The whole situation has escalated because no one was willing to set the standards of behavior for both parties. There has always been one standard for Israel where they have to behave perfectly, whilst the Palestinians can do whatever they like and return none of the same conditions and people just say "oh yes, but the nakba".

Sigh.

I can't count but honestly, since 1920 literally tens of millions of people have been displaced, myself included. Life doesn't get better by becoming terrorists or trying to annihilate people for stuff that happened 80 years ago.

Jews knows this better than anyone.

It's unfortunately time everyone learned this.

I don’t think the Israeli government wants to give Palestinians a state. They recently approved the biggest expansion of settlements and the death toll in the West Bank of innocent Palestinians is the highest it’s been for 20 years.

I think Israel should stop settler expansion to allow an internationally accepted border between Gaza and Israel and the west bank and Israel. Israel is never going to give up sovereignty of the land it effectively governs so realistically you have to start there. We can't have some fantastical situation where a UN force drives backs the IDF from parts of the west bank.....such thoughts are for the birds.

So Gaza and the West Bank with Jerusalem as a joint capital??? That would be the only solution yet the Palestinians will always hold a grievance about their lost territory and the existence of Israel.

I don't know what the solution is but Israel is going to exists as a state with its current borders and we work from there.

So what do you think should be the solution? What should Israel do to seek peace with Palestinians?

Any state requires borders and I think there lies the problem with a two state solution, where are those borders? If we concede probably reasonably that Israel will not concede land it currently owns/governs then we could have two states with the current borders but and it's a big but you will continue to have Palestinian grievance that will erupt in future violence....Palestine free from the river to the sea is very much different to let's have a two state solution with the Gaza strip and the currently held West Bank. It would good to get comment on this but can a Palestine exist as an economically viable state in any meaningful sense and not one that is dependent on economic aid on a large scale?

Images with Israelis not being racist but we cannot ignore the fact that Palestinains are steeped in hatred on Jews from an early age and this hatred all so horribly manifested itself in October 7th.

Thanks for you post @ForgesOfEmpires

I would like to ask you about this further:

I believe, with all my years of knowledge and experience in this conflict and the parties involved that peace in the middle east will happen when there is acceptance from both sides that the other has as much right to be there as they do, and they make a positive decision not to try and annihilate anyone or kidnap anyone or start wars.

I have to completely agree with you here. There are reasons why a one state solution won’t work.

I don’t think either side have been honest brokers towards a two state solution, but this has to be the way ahead then?

Can you see Israel making concessions towards this? And I am not talking about right of return of descendants of refugees. Even agreeing to stop settlements would be a start and then thinking what land the Palestinians do need for their state.

Absolutely fantastic post. Thank you for writing this.

@ForgesOfEmpiresincredible post, you write very well

Brilliant post, thank you.

@ForgesOfEmpires

Excellent post, hands down best I’ve seen on this subject. A really valuable and thoughtful contribution.

Its the first time in a very long time that I'm feeling a glimmer of hope that this time the war will really end.

I am of Arab decent myself. An atheist though. I have lived in the middle east for half my life. Trump (as much as I despise him) seems to have a pretty good handle on this conflict compared with most western leaders. The truth nobody wants to hear is this:

For the sake of this I will refer to Israelis as Jews and Palestinians as Arabs sometimes, for the sake of simplicity.

Both Jews and Arabs have a legitimate claim to the area that was briefly known as "British Mandate Palestine".

Both have long ranging historical ties to the land, but there is no denying that Jews were there first. Not that who was there first truly matters, they are both connected.

However, it is simply a fact that Jews were made second class citizens in their own homelands by invaders. Not just Arabs, but multiple invaders. They were ethnically cleansed, exiled, and treated appallingly. Up until the day Britain took control of the land, Jews were legal dhimmi - second class under law to Muslims.

The fact they had a minority population by 1917 is evidence of the abuse they'd endured for generations - including it being illegal for them to buy land in their own homeland or hold jobs in government in order that they might have any hope of improving their lot.

People can't live like that enduringly, simple as.

So when the land was divided by the British, was it fair on everyone? No, it was not. Lot of land was divided in the past and it was absolutely never fair on everyone. In1916 life wasn't fair on most people actually.

The answer to the problem is simple acceptance.

The nakba was very sad.

The Jews being expelled similarly from their homes around the middle east and north africa was equally sad.

I am sure both felt the same sense of deep loss and injustice.

But one side decided to move forward and rebuild, and the other side devoted themselves ideologically to the destruction of the other.

Most people who lost a home in 1948 are now dead.

What is much more sad is that people are now fighting and dying and losing their homes NOW over a right which never belonged to them to begin with.

Many things play into the fact that these people, and only these people uniquely on earth refuse to accept things and move forward. One is that our institutions and well meaning westerners play into these revolutionary ideas that in practice just hurt people.

This idea that destroying Israel is some metaphor for capitalism or some other such nonsense has no relationship to reality. The very much capitalist terrorists have been thieving your tax money for decades and are abusing their citizens whilst flying around on private jets.

Religious zealots who believe once conquered Muslim land must always remain Muslim land even if millions of people die in the process do not help either.

And for obvious reasons, the terrorist leaders, who, like every oppressive regime have become very rich off the blood of their people are not in any hurry for the conflict to end!

Those westerners who think there should be one equal rights state are (I am sorry) very uneducated on the middle east.

One equal rights state requires shared values. Jews do not want to live in an Islamic state, and Palestinians do not want to live in a liberal democracy.

The Western idea of "equal rights" exists in your mind as the ideal, but you cannot transfer this to different cultures you know nothing about.

If the citizens of the Palestinian territories wanted gay rights, women's rights, freedom of press, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, the right to fair and public trials, democracy or any of the things that factor into your fantasy of equality then absolutely nobody has been stopping them for decades now.

Their concept of human rights is different to yours. In fact, on the Arab Declaration of human rights one of the first things on it states that all people have a right of self determination. The item directly under this excludes Jews and only Jews from that definition!

My family in some oppressed societies where being gay is considered an abomination and women have to wear hijabs are happy to do that. Do I agree with it? No, I hate that for centuries religion has been used as a tool of bigotry and oppression of women. But that's their choice. Do I think it's justice if that choice is foisted on others? No.

Portraying Israel as the bogeyman, much as people to America, is easy to do, but at the end of the day it's a country like any other. It has had good leaders, bad leaders and some very bad leaders. But they are ultimately no worse than whatever country you live in, and certainly I would not stand for people calling for your destruction any more than I stand for people calling for theirs.

I believe, with all my years of knowledge and experience in this conflict and the parties involved that peace in the middle east will happen when there is acceptance from both sides that the other has as much right to be there as they do, and they make a positive decision not to try and annihilate anyone or kidnap anyone or start wars.

I feel quite shattered thinking of the innocent lives caught up in all this. Those kids living in tents with gunfire everywhere, taught to hate and believe this is the best life has for them. The orphans, the injured, the disabled - it must be horrific. I also feel shattered when I think of the victims of 7 Oct and all their families have endured, as well as the hostages still in Gaza.

What a terrible mess, and really all for absolutely nothing.

I really, really hope those people here who walk around in their keffiyehs are really able to thing about what "Free Palestine" really means. For me it means Hamas and all similar groups are gone and Palestinians are giving normal, happy, safe lives where their reasons for being isn't martyrdom nor murder.

As an Arab person, I strongly feel that Jewish people are my cousins, and that we have so much in common. I hope those calling for violence at music concerts or those harassing Jews around the world realise soon that they are part of the problem.

Any ceasefire will begin when people around the globe truly call out for peace, truly FUND peace and truly help work for peace. And peace cannot exist on the terms many of you demand.

And in the words of Donald: Thank you for your attention to this matter.

👏 👏