BBC’s Gaza Coverage: New Report Reveals Deep Bias

"I'm to know if Is there a word for misinformation from the Palestinian side in the same way as there is ‘Hasbara’ for the Israeli side?"

I'd question why there was ever a need for a word to describe the huge amount of misinformation from the Israeli side in the first place?

I’m interested to know if Is there a word for misinformation from the Palestinian side in the same way as there is ‘Hasbara’ for the Israeli side?

The events of Oct 7th is exactly the reason why all of these thousands of threads have been created due to the war they started, and the reason we are discussing this now.

Are you saying that a country with a superior military force cannot engage in a defensive war if its country has been invaded, thousands slaughtered and hundreds taken hostage?

Do you regard seeking and carrying out the destruction of a terrorist organisation, which carried out an unprecedented terrorist attack on a sovereign nation, as ‘genocide’?

Everyone’s different, but personally, I’m far less embarrassed about making a minor error in an otherwise accurate account than I would be about spending hours nitpicking the finer details of how Hamas murdered children on October 7.

As I said, I genuinely don’t care who exactly they butchered in that kindergarten. What matters is that they walked into a kindergarten planning to kill whoever they found - and they did.

Whether it was 38 kids in their bunk beds or crying in safe rooms is beside the point. My judgment isn’t based on the location of their murders. It’s based on the fact that they committed the murders by going to find as many people as they could to kill.

Hamas are a bunch of terrorists who want to kill every Jew on earth. It's in their founding document. I do not feel any need for a grey area on this.

Are people making up false allegations there then?

We all know there was horrific sexual violence on that day. There are numerous reports and it's discussed widely in the media and had been widely condemned.

There's no need for me to go to another thread where I agree with the blame being attributed.

More importantly though, why are you deflecting and using whataboutery target than criticising the literal making up of a terrorist incident that a poster did here.

@Babyboomtastic if you are worried that Hamas are being unfairly labelled as being worse than they are and feel strongly about attributing "the right blame" maybe you should head over to the thread on Sexual violence as a weapon of war during October 7th massacre.

I notice you haven't commented on that one yet but it's all about Hamas having to take the right blame for their sexual attacks on the day they chose to massacre, rape, humiliate and mutilate mainly females in Israel.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5369592-sexual-violence-as-a-weapon-of-war-during-october-7-massacre?page=6

Which people are okay with, because it allows them to draw false equivalence with the army of a democratic nation fighting a completely just war, with a bunch of terrorists who want to kill every Jew on earth. @ForgesOfEmpires

Wow, you've certainly fallen into the "black and white" camp.
Is there any aspect of the Palestinian call for a nation state that you can sympathise with ?

Also, "want to kill every Jew on earth" is as ridiculous a statement as saying that Israel wants to kill every Palestinian. Comments like those are neither accurate nor helpful and they just cause anxiety amongst the hard of understanding.

I already answered you.

I’m sitting at home, juggling threads, phone calls, and other things and I genuinely didn’t remember saying “dozens of children.” in that sentence. When you brought it up, I was surprised myself to an extend I do not remember it. When pointed out I immediately retracted and apologised. Odds are I meant “dozens of children were murdered that day” - which, incidentally, they were.

If I were running some Machiavellian misinformation op, don’t you think I’d have edited the post?

No one needs to exaggerate what Hamas did on October 7. It was one of the most proudly and sadistically brutal attacks carried out by any group in living memory. Whether those civilians were murdered in a nursery or next door - or whether the attackers found teachers or toddlers - is an odd detail to obsess over.

I’m baffled why you care so deeply about that nuance. Does it materially change anything? Does it somehow make Hamas more respectable if the nursery had only adults in it when they stormed in with guns and killed everyone?

There’s a world of difference between deliberately inventing lies and misremembering one detail in the middle of recounting an atrocity that absolutely did happen.

I can tell you exactly why I take time to challenge misinformation about Israel:

1. Because I support Israel

2. Because Jews are being targeted, beaten, and threatened globally thanks to the disinformation campaign against that country.

3. Because 80 years ago, lies about Jews led to actual genocide - and I’ve never in my life seen a propaganda war like the one I’m seeing now against Israel.

Meanwhile, I despise Hamas.

They’re terrorist murderers and very proudly and openly tell you that.

And unlike Israel, they’re not the victims of some global smear campaign. I don’t see people photoshopping fake atrocities to slander them. No one’s circulating Sudanese war images pretending they’re of Hamas victims. This targeted disinformation is a one-way street - and you’re marching right along it.

So if you support Hamas, own it. Say it with your chest and at least be honest.
If you don’t, maybe take a moment to ask yourself why you’re wasting time nitpicking where, precisely, Hamas murdered civilians - instead of asking why you’re running PR for them at all.

as per pp

It's not just that you passed on disinformation, you seem to have literally made them up in the first place. Then denied doing so, called me a liar, and only actually accepted it when I called you out on it.
It worries me that you seem to think that once someone or something is declared as 'bad' that you can make any claim against them without evidence, and that's ok. It's not. I have a strong interest in truth and justice. To me that means the right blame, for the right things, to the right people. Not just throwing mud to see if it sticks.

I think you'll find that many of us echo these sentiments on these boards (in an occasionally more humble way), but from differing viewpoints.

I've found@ForgesOfEmpires posts to be well written and informative, unlike many other posts on these boards and I hope they continue to post.

How about the deal where given you've apologised for totally making up an act of terrorism from scratch, you now don't try to justify doing so.

It's not just that you passed on disinformation, you seem to have literally made them up in the first place. Then denied doing so, called me a liar, and only actually accepted it when I called you out on it.

It worries me that you seem to think that once someone or something is declared as 'bad' that you can make any claim against them without evidence, and that's ok. It's not. I have a strong interest in truth and justice. To me that means the right blame, for the right things, to the right people. Not just throwing mud to see if it sticks.

That's why when we prosecute people, we need evidence of the specific crimes, not just go on previous offences. It's why if someone is accused of rape and murder, we need sufficient evidence of both to convict for both. We don't just go 'oh well he killed her so he probably did both'. So yes I'll fact check. And yes I'd fact check for a serial killer. And if someone said that the IDF had been using Palestinian heads as footballs, I'd fact check that too.

There are two scenarios here.

1. you made up to lie deliberately, as propaganda and disinformation. I won't speculate as to why, but it's quite unpleasant and morally wrong to do so.
2. I'm hoping it's this one. You thought you'd heard 12 toddlers from somewhere, couldn't quite remember where went back to check that picture's what you found. You put 2 and 2 together and made 10. It was a genuine mistake (albeit one that you forgot making and denied that you said).

If it is number 2 and it was a mistake, then surely you are glad that I fact checked, so that you aren't contributing to the spreading of false information. You should be thanking me for this rather than slating me.

So was this a genuine mistake and you're grateful that I picked you up on it? Or was it a liberate lie?

Let's make a deal.

If Israel puts on masks, parachutes into Jordan saying that theyre going to annihlate it, and in a single day intentionally butchers 1200 people on live feed going from house to house killing every person they see, from grandma's to disabled people to ensure families who are trying desperately to hide and escape, if they gang rape people, shoot their genitals, burn them alive whilst they're hiding, sit down in their houses surrounded by their dead bodies having a snack, runs around a music festival shooting hundreds of young people to death, hacks people's heads off with garden tools, kidnaps hundreds of people randomly including kids and live streams the lot with their voices in the background audio screaming with joy "I've killed a Muslim"!!!

If that happens, then I will not find you to split hairs over who in particular they killed when they went into a kindergarten trying to find people to murder.

How about we agree that?

And while we're at it, lets agree there's a very large difference between disputing who happened to be in a building when terrorists went in and deliberately murdered everyone there - on a day where they openly and very proudly indeed with no dispute of any kind, deliberately murdered every civilian they could find.

Completely making up things about the army of a democratic state which never happened is not the same, is it?

Nobody needs to inflate the evils of Hamas. They openly do it. They record themselves doing it. They do not care what war crimes they commit, they do not care if the entire world knows they deliberately murder civilians including babies.

They are PROUD.

They showed off.

They paraded some of the bodies. They paraded some of the coffins and had a macabre party.

Israel on the other hand, is lied about constantly, often with little or no evidence.

Which people are okay with, because it allows them to draw false equivalence with the army of a democratic nation fighting a completely just war, with a bunch of terrorists who want to kill every Jew on earth.

Some of the Hasbara on here is ludicrous.
The tactics and obfuscation are obvious.

If I said that Israel knifed a dozen toddlers how many people do you think would jump in and correct me? Would you find it weird that people were correcting me because I said knifed a dozen toddlers instead of blew up 100s?

I wouldn't describe Murray as a xenophobe, he has friends and colleagues from all over the world, but as an openly gay man he is rightly cautious in some countries.

Ah well then I apologise, I do not remember saying that and I retract it. I’m happy to correct that, as I have no memory at all of saying it, I must have been distracted - but it's curious that you are fact-checking forum posts to ensure a list of atrocities committed by a terrorist group was completely correct. Honestly!

They killed 1200 people that day. Does it actually matter that they killed kindergarten teachers instead of kindergarten pupils because it was a Sunday or Saturday or whatever?

Do you go to serial killer forums and go through lists of Ted Bundy's murders and email the admin to say "well actually Ted didn't kill so and so because it was his day off so you are a liar" ?

It is very, very weird thing to do.

I did not say anywhere anything about 12 kids. You invented that.

Sigh.
Here's the screenshot of you saying this specific thing. I've even highlighted the relevant bits to make it crystal clear.

You made this up.

I'll have to try consider and explore if I'm xenophobic myself. I get very frustrated with these terms as they're extreme when they say fear or hatred. I'm not ok with these terms.

Would I prefer to be surrounded by the familiar and relatable to me? Yes definitely. If it's a culture or country of origin that I can gel better with or feel more drawn to, yes. I've lived in all sorts of places and feel more comfortable and gel with certain cultures and people of certain geographic origins more than others. I don't think this is xenophobia. I think it's being human and real.

When I hear reports, I try and verify them. Most things that genuinely happened in Gaza are filmed. I cross check data if I can. Then I apply as much logic to it as I can.

I saw a photo of the Kibutz nursery with blood stained floor and walls, published by Reuters and numerous outlets, so I am certain the photo is real. These blood stained photos in the Kibutz kindergarten on October 7 would imply quite strongly that Hamas had been in there on that day and attacked people. I did not say anywhere anything about 12 kids. You invented that.

I cross check data when I can, but Israel has not released data on which children were killed and where, they are all anonymous. I had no need to verify vigorously the details of the photograph, because it was common knowledge that Hamas attacked Israel on that day and hours of footage of them celebrating this massacre were shared proudly with the world.

This was one of many photos and videos shared of that day. I did not look at every photo and video I saw and investigate it forensically, because there is no need to test to voracity of something that is a widely established and undisputed fact. Why would there be?

For your own peace of mind, I have searched for accounts of what occurred as obviously the blood didn't come from nobody. What I found is:

• Many staff were present at the nursery and other communal buildings because it coincided with a national holiday
• Survivors describe buildings and safe rooms “draped in dried blood” and children’s toys scattered across bloodstained floors, marking sites of massacre - including the nursery.
• Militants shot civilians through the building, systematically going room-to-room.

So it sounds very much like they just murdered unarmed nursery teachers, rather than nursery pupils, who were mercifully not there that day.

I am sure though of course, had it been a Monday Hamas would have said "oh no we can't go in there and murder children because we never do that".

@ForgesOfEmpires
When I hear reports, I try and verify them. Most things that genuinely happened in Gaza are filmed. I cross check data if I can. Then I apply as much logic to it as I can.

No you don't. Only when it suits.

11.06 this morning you claimed "Hamas has gone into nurseries and knifed a dozen toddlers to death". When asked for evidence of this, you said you'd 'seen it on the internet'.

When pushed further, you linked to an article, showing a picture of a blood-stained room, potentially a nursery, from Oct 7th. The article mentions nothing about the room. Whilst clearly someone was killed there (whether Israeli or Hamas), the only thing we do know is that it wasn't the 12 kids you claim. The nursery wasn't even open because it was the Sabbath and a national holiday.

When this was pointed out to you, you ignored it.

I don't read stuff on X generally but I will take a look at Douglas Murray's new book. I like it when people are honest about where they stand so you can take that into account. Thank you.

Douglas Murray is very honest and open about where he stands. He’s also talks a lot of sense IMO. He’s in Israel a lot I think. Been interviewed with bombs going off behind him anyway.

Also I think Colonel Richard Kemp and Andrew Fox (both former British military) also give fair analysis. Andrew Fox has got some interesting Substacks. Both post on X. Both been in Gaza multiple times during the war and have seen what’s going on.

I’d take their word over armchair commentators who have never stepped foot in the region,

Of course all are paid Israeli shills according to posters on here.

Exactly. I find it revolting.

Like you say there's complete certainty that after a very long and brutal war people have horrible conditions, but when people try and exaggerate it - particularly using children - they're more interested in hating Israel than they are in the real suffering.