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Conflict in the Middle East

To wish those in Israel safety in these coming times

684 replies

mids2019 · 15/06/2025 04:09

Israel is a country at war and I know many will have links or family in that country so I think it appropriate to wish them safety in the coming days.

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purpletablet · 18/06/2025 18:56

Twiglets1 · 18/06/2025 18:43

You’re so naive @purpletablet if you really believe that just because a terrorist organisation changes the wording from Jew to Zionism that reflects a genuine change of heart.

The glee that Hamas have displayed towards Jewish suffering on October 7th and afterwards - at the hostage exchange releases for example - shows us who they are & that the Jew hate is still strong.

Why are you & others so keen to defend them?

I am not defending Hamas. I have consistently condemned their antisemitic rhetoric and their attacks on civilians. Acknowledging that Hamas has political motivations alongside its hateful ideology is not the same as excusing or endorsing its actions.

What I am trying to do is keep the focus on the bigger picture. The suffering of Palestinians cannot all be dismissed or ignored simply because Hamas exists. Most Palestinians are not Hamas, and most of them have no control over Hamas’s decisions. They are the ones living under blockade, occupation, and military assault.

Pointing out the political dimensions of the conflict is not naivety. It is an attempt to understand why this cycle of violence keeps repeating. If we only frame everything as irrational hatred of Jews, we ignore the very real grievances and conditions that fuel this conflict. Condemning antisemitism and demanding justice for Palestinians are not mutually exclusive. In fact, both are necessary if we want peace.

Twiglets1 · 18/06/2025 18:43

You’re so naive @purpletablet if you really believe that just because a terrorist organisation changes the wording from Jew to Zionism that reflects a genuine change of heart.

The glee that Hamas have displayed towards Jewish suffering on October 7th and afterwards - at the hostage exchange releases for example - shows us who they are & that the Jew hate is still strong.

Why are you & others so keen to defend them?

SharonEllis · 18/06/2025 18:42

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 18:39

Worst one I've seen today - and there have been many - is that Jews have a delusion of grandeur when it comes to antisemitism.

Yes, that's quite something. And trotting out the tired old 'oh its zionism' they have a problem with...did they type it with a straight face I wonder. I mean really, who falls for that?

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 18:39

SharonEllis · 18/06/2025 18:37

Me too. How is it possible to read the words that come out of their mouths and conclude they do not hate Jews.

Worst one I've seen today - and there have been many - is that Jews have a delusion of grandeur when it comes to antisemitism.

SharonEllis · 18/06/2025 18:39

purpletablet · 18/06/2025 18:23

Yes, the 1988 Hamas charter contains deeply antisemitic language, and I fully acknowledge that. It absolutely should be condemned. But it is also important to understand that a political movement’s founding document is not always a fixed or complete reflection of its evolving goals, strategies, or the views of the people it claims to represent.

Since then, Hamas has released more recent political statements, including a 2017 document that softened some of the language and stated that its conflict is with Zionism, not Judaism. That shift may be imperfect or unconvincing to some, but it shows an attempt to present a more political position, especially in international contexts.

Most importantly, the broader point still stands. We can acknowledge Hamas’s antisemitism while also recognising that the wider conflict is not simply about religious hatred. It is about land, occupation, displacement, and political power. Reducing the entire Palestinian struggle to Hamas’s most extreme rhetoric is like reducing all Israeli policy to its most hardline settler movements. It shuts down the real conversation that needs to happen about justice, rights, and ending the violence.

Nope, you're not making it better. This is the most disgraceful apologism.

SharonEllis · 18/06/2025 18:37

dairydebris · 18/06/2025 16:48

Unbelievable. Honestly flabbergasted

Me too. How is it possible to read the words that come out of their mouths and conclude they do not hate Jews.

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 18:31

purpletablet · 18/06/2025 18:23

Yes, the 1988 Hamas charter contains deeply antisemitic language, and I fully acknowledge that. It absolutely should be condemned. But it is also important to understand that a political movement’s founding document is not always a fixed or complete reflection of its evolving goals, strategies, or the views of the people it claims to represent.

Since then, Hamas has released more recent political statements, including a 2017 document that softened some of the language and stated that its conflict is with Zionism, not Judaism. That shift may be imperfect or unconvincing to some, but it shows an attempt to present a more political position, especially in international contexts.

Most importantly, the broader point still stands. We can acknowledge Hamas’s antisemitism while also recognising that the wider conflict is not simply about religious hatred. It is about land, occupation, displacement, and political power. Reducing the entire Palestinian struggle to Hamas’s most extreme rhetoric is like reducing all Israeli policy to its most hardline settler movements. It shuts down the real conversation that needs to happen about justice, rights, and ending the violence.

I can't work out whether this is satire.

purpletablet · 18/06/2025 18:23

Twiglets1 · 18/06/2025 17:46

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology

A close read of Hamas’s founding documents clearly shows its intentions.

The covenant opens with a message that precisely encapsulates Hamas’s master plan. Quoting Hassan al-Banna, the Egyptian founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is a constituent member (Article 2), the document proclaims, “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious … It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps.

“The Day of Judgement will not come about,” it proclaims, “until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/

Edited

Yes, the 1988 Hamas charter contains deeply antisemitic language, and I fully acknowledge that. It absolutely should be condemned. But it is also important to understand that a political movement’s founding document is not always a fixed or complete reflection of its evolving goals, strategies, or the views of the people it claims to represent.

Since then, Hamas has released more recent political statements, including a 2017 document that softened some of the language and stated that its conflict is with Zionism, not Judaism. That shift may be imperfect or unconvincing to some, but it shows an attempt to present a more political position, especially in international contexts.

Most importantly, the broader point still stands. We can acknowledge Hamas’s antisemitism while also recognising that the wider conflict is not simply about religious hatred. It is about land, occupation, displacement, and political power. Reducing the entire Palestinian struggle to Hamas’s most extreme rhetoric is like reducing all Israeli policy to its most hardline settler movements. It shuts down the real conversation that needs to happen about justice, rights, and ending the violence.

TwoTierBbq · 18/06/2025 18:22

I thought the latest attack by hammas was started because there had been good elations between them, people from Palestine were working in Israel and Israel was getting closer to Saudi.

Stripes56 · 18/06/2025 18:18

dairydebris · 18/06/2025 13:44

To your first paragraph, I was under the impression that if a senior member of the opposing side is believed to be there, then that building does indeed become a legitimate military target. Thats why this war is so awful, Hamas could literally be hiding anywhere in Gaza, and this is by their design. All of Gaza therefore becomes a target, and Israel has plausible deniabilty. Again, by Hamas design. But as for the reports of children being shot in the head, Hind Rajab, and the recent shit show of aid distribution, I admit things are less clear. I hope those found to be committing war crimes can be held to account, on both sides. I do still think if you open the Pandoras box of war, then these things will happen, any humans at war commit atrocities.

I don't see why its misleading to say Palestinians less opportunities than Israel. Statehood was literally something both sides could have declared into existence. The UN proposed a division of land for the 2 groups. Israel accepted and declared statehood. Palestinians didn't. All those things you keep mentioning, why do you keep saying they couldn't have had those? They could, just by saying, yes we are Palestine, these are our borders, this is our flag etc. Then they would have been recognized, as Israel was. Why do you think they couldn't have done this?
All that has happened since is as a consequence of Palestinian refusal to accept Israel as a state on the land. They've prioritized getting rid of israel over their own economic stability. They've launched violent attacks targeted at Israeli citizens instead of building industry. They've voted for political parties that pledge to destroy zionists rather than having any plan at all for a stable future for their children.

I agree with your statement that Israel has killed more than vv. But I think that's because of the huge investment Israel as a nation has made in its own defense. The Iron Dome. Safe rooms. National Service. Israel takes care of its own. If Hamas had the firepower Israel does, what do you think it would have done with it? How many civilians would have been killed by rockets from enemies sent towards Israeli citizens in peacetime?

I think atrocities have been commited by both sides. War crimes too. I am just pushing back at what I see as the constant victimization of Palestinians on here. Their piss poor leadership has constantly been their downfall. I don't agree with the often simplistic Israel = oppressor, Palestinians = victims narrative. It's not as simple as that.

If it should have been easy for the Palestinians to give up their land for the creation of Israel- why is Israel not happy to go back to 1967 borders? And for the sake of peace - why have they not stopped the settlements which are continuing at pace? Can they have half of Jerusalem if it creates peace?

Is it so easy to give up land? If it’s hard for Israel - why not for Palestinians?

mouthpipette · 18/06/2025 18:15

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 17:21

I really do wish this gaslighting would stop.

How is this gaslighting ?
Are you sure you understand what the term means ?

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 17:49

Oh yeah, it's almost as though Mein Kampf was never written. @purpletablet

Twiglets1 · 18/06/2025 17:46

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology

A close read of Hamas’s founding documents clearly shows its intentions.

The covenant opens with a message that precisely encapsulates Hamas’s master plan. Quoting Hassan al-Banna, the Egyptian founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is a constituent member (Article 2), the document proclaims, “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious … It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps.

“The Day of Judgement will not come about,” it proclaims, “until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/

MusedeBordeaux · 18/06/2025 17:43

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purpletablet · 18/06/2025 17:40

Twiglets1 · 18/06/2025 17:23

Why don’t Hamas chant about killing Israelis then @purpletablet ?

Why do they specifically focus on Jews?

Hamas and some other Palestinian groups do not recognise the legitimacy of the Israeli state, which is why they often refer to Israelis as “Zionists” or “Jews” instead. This language is political, not just religious. It’s not always because they are targeting people for being Jewish, but because in their view, the state of Israel is an illegitimate colonial project, and using the term “Israeli” would imply recognition of its legitimacy.

ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend · 18/06/2025 17:35

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 17:21

I really do wish this gaslighting would stop.

No one is gaslighting anybody. You surely can't believe that Hamas sole objective is based on killing all Jews? It is an Islamist resistance movement which violently rejects the existence of Israel, which it claims is occupying Palestine. This is a mainstream view.

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 17:32

ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend · 18/06/2025 17:29

Sorry I stand corrected propped them up. Question still stands

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

I've already read that article, in its entirety - you clearly haven't. These myths are getting tedious.

ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend · 18/06/2025 17:29

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 17:27

he didn't fund them.

Sorry I stand corrected propped them up. Question still stands

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 17:27

ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend · 18/06/2025 16:54

So why did Netanyahu fund them? Surely funding a terrorist organisation that's sole purpose was to kill all Jews is self harm.

he didn't fund them.

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 17:24

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Yes, quite a few slipping masks.

Twiglets1 · 18/06/2025 17:23

Why don’t Hamas chant about killing Israelis then @purpletablet ?

Why do they specifically focus on Jews?

MusedeBordeaux · 18/06/2025 17:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 17:21

purpletablet · 18/06/2025 17:20

Like@mouthpipettesaid-

If the people who established the state of Israel had been Mormons instead of Jews, and they still displaced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, occupied their land, blockaded them, and subjected them to decades of military control and violence, the resistance would still have happened. The core of the conflict is not simply that Israelis are Jewish, but that they represent a state that Palestinians see as having taken their land and denied them basic rights and sovereignty.

That does not mean antisemitism is not real or that it does not exist within Hamas. It clearly does. But saying the entire opposition is rooted only in antisemitism ignores the political realities. Palestinians are not resisting because of who Israelis are religiously, but because of what they do politically and militarily.

Claiming it is only about antisemitism hides that reality. If we want any chance at resolving this conflict, we have to be honest about what is actually driving it.

I really do wish this gaslighting would stop.

purpletablet · 18/06/2025 17:20

Twiglets1 · 18/06/2025 17:01

No you’re just minimising how deeply, profoundly antisemitic Hamas are.

They are literally committed to killing Jews & you’re making that look almost coincidental.

It’s good that you can see that Hamas chanting about killing Jews is hateful. What about when they stop chanting and actually kill loads of Jews, is that hateful too?

Like@mouthpipettesaid-

If the people who established the state of Israel had been Mormons instead of Jews, and they still displaced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, occupied their land, blockaded them, and subjected them to decades of military control and violence, the resistance would still have happened. The core of the conflict is not simply that Israelis are Jewish, but that they represent a state that Palestinians see as having taken their land and denied them basic rights and sovereignty.

That does not mean antisemitism is not real or that it does not exist within Hamas. It clearly does. But saying the entire opposition is rooted only in antisemitism ignores the political realities. Palestinians are not resisting because of who Israelis are religiously, but because of what they do politically and militarily.

Claiming it is only about antisemitism hides that reality. If we want any chance at resolving this conflict, we have to be honest about what is actually driving it.

Twiglets1 · 18/06/2025 17:01

purpletablet · 18/06/2025 16:56

You’re right that antisemitism is present in some of Hamas’ rhetoric and ideology. I’ve never denied that, and I agree that chanting about killing Jews is hateful and indefensible. But recognising that Hamas contains antisemitic elements does not mean the entire conflict is solely about antisemitism.

What I’ve been trying to say is that there are also deeply rooted political and territorial issues driving this violence. Framing the entire struggle as just about hatred of Jews risks ignoring decades of occupation, displacement, and military control that have fuelled Palestinian anger and resistance. That context doesn’t excuse violence against civilians, but it helps explain why the conflict has persisted for so long.

Reducing it all to antisemitism may feel morally clear-cut, but it oversimplifies a complex situation and shuts down the possibility of addressing the real causes of suffering on both sides.

No you’re just minimising how deeply, profoundly antisemitic Hamas are.

They are literally committed to killing Jews & you’re making that look almost coincidental.

It’s good that you can see that Hamas chanting about killing Jews is hateful. What about when they stop chanting and actually kill loads of Jews, is that hateful too?

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